il virus: covid-19 in italy

[Flavour]

Others suggested having a thread dedicated to covid-19 developments in Italy, and as I'm perhaps the only poster living in Italy, I thought I'd start it.

As we all know, the last 24 hours have seen a significant escalation in government measures to contain the epidemic, with the country's most populous region, Lombardy, being declared a "red zone" as well several other provinces in Veneto, Emilia Romagna and Piedmont.

Here is a map.



So apparently people can't leave or enter these areas, though in practice lots of people have been leaving (infamously aboard the last trains south last night, because news of the red zone was leaked to the press hours before it was implemented)

I fully expect the red zone to be enlarged in coming days. As of this evening, the official count is 6387 cases and 366 deaths. These are still mainly concentrated in Lombardy but every region has cases, and many have deaths. I'm in a part of Piedmont which is not (yet) part of the red zone but I expect it will be within a week's time.

Pubs, clubs, theatres, gyms and all other places of public gathering have been told to close across the entire country. restaurants and bars are still open, for now, but are under orders to follow safety precautions (which in my limited experience are NOT being followed)... last night there were loads of people out in turin, all gathered outside, young people, as if it were all normal. it's bizarre.

things are going to get much worse before they get better. i expect to lose my job within 2-3 months max as I work for an event that will almost certainly be cancelled (it's in october but it will almost certainly not go ahead)

 

[tim]

I've just talked to a friend in Lecce who says it hasn't really affected the South yet. She runs a company transport that take fruit and veg to Northern Europe and imports meat all her drivers have special passes allowing them to transit through the plague zone.

 

[wayward bob]

not liked, but thanks for thread.

 

[Flavour]

I've just talked to a friend in Lecce who says it hasn't really affected the South yet. She runs a company transport that take fruit and veg to Northern Europe and imports meat all her drivers have special passes allowing them to transit through the plague zone.

please don't call it plague zone, that's not helpful or funny. Those northern european countries may block all road traffic from italy soon enough, making passes to transit through the red zone useless.

 

[hash tag]

Me and Mrs T have a fondness for Italy and have been trying to stay informed about what's happening: all the status, newly confirmed infections, on off of footie, closures of so many places etc.
thanks for the thread; I'm in.

 

[Sue]

Went for dinner last night and asked the waiter where he was from in Italy. He said 'the red zone' and I immediately thought he was talking about Red Bologna or some such.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Others suggested having a thread dedicated to covid-19 developments in Italy, and as I'm perhaps the only poster living in Italy, I thought I'd start it.

As we all know, the last 24 hours have seen a significant escalation in government measures to contain the epidemic, with the country's most populous region, Lombardy, being declared a "red zone" as well several other provinces in Veneto, Emilia Romagna and Piedmont.

Here is a map.

View attachment 201025

So apparently people can't leave or enter these areas, though in practice lots of people have been leaving (infamously aboard the last trains south last night, because news of the red zone was leaked to the press hours before it was implemented)

I fully expect the red zone to be enlarged in coming days. As of this evening, the official count is 6387 cases and 366 deaths. These are still mainly concentrated in Lombardy but every region has cases, and many have deaths. I'm in a part of Piedmont which is not (yet) part of the red zone but I expect it will be within a week's time.

Pubs, clubs, theatres, gyms and all other places of public gathering have been told to close across the entire country. restaurants and bars are still open, for now, but are under orders to follow safety precautions (which in my limited experience are NOT being followed)... last night there were loads of people out in turin, all gathered outside, young people, as if it were all normal. it's bizarre.

things are going to get much worse before they get better. i expect to lose my job within 2-3 months max as I work for an event that will almost certainly be cancelled (it's in october but it will almost certainly not go ahead)

My friend is due to return home to Genova in a couple of weeks, that's not 'red' yet but there's a lot of red just across the mountains. I hope she is allowed to return because she can't really stay in the UK having handed in notice for both her job and her house

 

[elbows]

Thanks for starting the thread.

All Brits returning from lockdown areas of Italy told to self-isolate
The Department of Health is now advising anyone who has returned from the lockdown areas in northern Italy to self-isolate for two weeks, even if they do not have coronavirus symptoms.
Travel and health advice was updated on Sunday evening after the entire Lombardy region and 14 other provinces were placed in quarantine.
Anyone returning from anywhere in Lombardy, which includes Milan and Como, should self-isolate, as should those returning from Modena, Parma, Piacenza, Reggio Emilia and Rimini (all in Emilia Romagna); Pesaro e Urbino (in Marche); Alessandria, Asti, Novara, Verbano-Cusio-Ossola and Vercelli (all in Piedmont) and Padova, Treviso and Venice (in Veneto).

43m ago 20:21

 

[elbows]

The Guardian is reporting prison riots and the death of a prisoner as a result.

An inmate died on Sunday after a riot at a prison in Modena that broke out when detainees were informed that the new emergency decree bans visits and contacts between prisoners and their relatives in order to reduce infections.

Other jail riots were also sparked in Salerno and Frosinone when the news of the draft decree banning visits from relatives spread among inmates.

7m ago 21:00

 

[Flavour]

update:

italy is effectively suspending schengen for the red zone, according to reports in La Stampa, from tomorrow flights arriving into Milan (or venice) from either the schengen area or outside will be subject to checks, and passengers will have to explain their reason for entering italy to customs officials. i think what that's supposed to mean is if you're not a resident of the red zone returning home, don't bother getting on a plane to fly to milan.

similar stuff on the highways and train lines. threats of jail time for anyone breaking the rules of the red zone (up to 3 months inside) which is ironic considering the prison riot situation elbows mentions above.

Coronavirus, direttiva del Viminale: controlli in stazioni, aeroporti e strade. Chi viola la quarantena rischia il carcere

1326 malati in più di ieri, 366 i decessi. 650 malati in terapia intensiva: 291 in più rispetto a ieri. Da Fiorello a Jovanotti, #iorestoacasa. Borrelli: gli uffici pubblici restano aperti. Protesta nelle carceri: un morto a Modena, sequestrati due agenti a Pavia

www.lastampa.it

 

[Cloo]

I was wondering, has anyone considered why Italy seems so badly hit? Could it be in any way connected to Italy being a particularly tactile, low-personal-space kind of culture?

 

[Flavour]

I was wondering, has anyone considered why Italy seems so badly hit? Could it be in any way connected to Italy being a particularly tactile, low-personal-space kind of culture?

i think it's that + lots of old people + health service doing lots of tests, and people being a bit hypochondriac and therefore more likely to go and ask to be tested than say in germany

 

[Cloo]

i think it's that + lots of old people + health service doing lots of tests, and people being a bit hypochondriac and therefore more likely to go and ask to be tested than say in germany

That's really interesting - i did gather there are quite a lot of older people too, didn't know there was bit of a hypochondriac culture too. I wonder if UK might have the opposite problem of people more likely to drag themselves into work no matter how awful they are feeling.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Just spotted this thread, so I'll copy over these posts...

It's spreading in Italy's prison system, three prisoners have died overnight.

* This from a live Sky News report.

I havent gone looking for that news but I know there have been prison riots (triggered by new covid-19 measures that affect prison visits) which have resulted in death. So perhaps its that, rather than death from Covid-19.

Since there is now a thread for Italy I will try not to talk about it more in this thread.

It's odd, they repeated it in another live report an hour later, again saying 'three prisoners have died overnight from Covid-19' and 'that it is spreading in the prison system', but there doesn't seem to be any other reports, so maybe it's a fuck-up.

The death toll from the prison riots is now six.

Six dead as prison riots sweep Italy sparked by coronavirus emergency laws

Dozens of inmates set fire to the prison in Modena, near Bologna, after visits from family and friends were halted due to Italy's emergency coronavirus decree

www.mirror.co.uk

 

[elbows]

Allowing for lag and the fog of war, I will wait at least 2 week before thinking that Italy is much worse hit, it might well just be experiencing outbreaks slightly earlier than other places.

I suppose there are lots of things that can make a difference to how this stuff looks in different places right now, have mentioned some of them before and various issues with the detection and timing of cases and deaths, so wont repeat myself right now.

I suppose if I'm trying to be really complete, shouldnt rule out things like the potential role of other seasonal influenza-like illness illness outbreaks in terms of potentially obscuring detection of Covid-19 cases, and its even possible it could make a difference clinically (if, for example, co-infection with other things was determined to be a big factor in case outcomes). But I dont think there was a huge amount of evidence from China of co-infections being a big difference maker, but still early days.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Oh, and I did rewind the live news* to check I heard it right.

* The beauty of modern technology/the work of the devil.

 

[Flavour]

Yeah prison riots across the country now, inmates on the rooves, at precisely the time the cops are supposed to be implementing road blocks and so on. Good job italy has more than double the number of cops than the UK, eh?

 

[Pickman's model]

US announces economic measures after markets plunge on virus fears – as it happened

Cases spike sharply across Europe and emergency measures in place from California to Saudi Arabia. This blog is closed.

www.theguardian.com

grim already, grimmer soon no doubt

 

[wayward bob]

the guardian on prison deaths

More details have been released about the six inmates who died while protesting against virus containment measures at a northern Italian prison.

The deaths occurred after prisoners broke into the infirmary and took overdoses, Associated Press reports.

 

[Flavour]

the deaths were in Modena yes, some apparently from drug overdoses as rioting prisoners managed to get their hands on drugs held in the prison pharmacy.

there are riots at prisons all over italy though.

 

[hash tag]

The quarantine/lockdown thing started early Sunday morning which is a strange day to implement it given that it's predominantly in the North. Isn't skiing change over day normally Saturday?

 

[bimble]

This is really frightening. From a doctor in a hospital near Milan.

Thread by @silviast9: 1/ I may be repeating myself, but I want to fight this sense of security that I see outside of the epicenters, as if nothing was going to ha…

Thread by @silviast9: 1/ I may be repeating myself, but I want to fight this sense of security that I see outside of the epicenters, as if nos going to happen "here". The media in Europe are reassuring, politicians are reassuring, while there's little to…

threadreaderapp.com

 

[elbows]

Sadly it is exactly that sort of scenario that informed my stance from the start, and why I had little time for the bogus 'war on panic' or the 'its just like flu' wankers, or those that think its more important to overly reassure people than give them an honest picture.

At least I'm not alone so I wasnt driven crazy by the gulf in perceptions. Anyone who even casually read up on pandemics and pandemic preparedness in the past, or has been paying attention to all the details of this outbreak, should be more than capable of seeing this situation for what it is

 

[SpookyFrank]

I was wondering, has anyone considered why Italy seems so badly hit? Could it be in any way connected to Italy being a particularly tactile, low-personal-space kind of culture?

It's not particularly IME. Or maybe in some ways but not others. For example, Italians think it's weird that in the UK a shopkeeper will put your change directly into your hand, instead of on the counter.

 

[cupid_stunt]

The death toll has gone up from 366 yesterday to 463 today.

 

[Flavour]

All of country on total lock down from tomorrow morning.

 

[phillm]

7m ago20:44

All of Italy on lockdown – prime minister
All of Italy will be placed under the lockdown conditions thus far imposed upon the so-called “red zone” in the north of the country, the Italian prime minister Giuseppe Conte has said.
The restrictions will include banning all public gatherings and preventing all movement other than for work and emergencies. According to the Reuters news agency, he has said the decision was necessary to protect Italy’s most vulnerable citizens and that the right course of action now is for people to stay at home.

 

[phillm]

Italy’s Politicians Are Making the Coronavirus Crisis Worse
Squabbling leaders, publicity-seeking scientists, and late containment efforts show that authoritarian regimes aren’t the only ones mismanaging public health crises.

Italy’s Politicians Are Making the Coronavirus Crisis Worse

Squabbling leaders, publicity-seeking scientists, and late containment efforts show that authoritarian regimes aren’t the only ones mismanaging public health crises.

foreignpolicy.com

 

[prunus]

i think it's that + lots of old people + health service doing lots of tests, and people being a bit hypochondriac and therefore more likely to go and ask to be tested than say in germany

You seem to have this the wrong way round - the ‘problem’ in Italy is the high fatality rate (~5%), not the number of cases. Excess tests would tend to lead to an accurate fatality rate, which everyone is hoping is lower than 5%. The hope is they have a low test rate/excess testing of serious/critical/fatal cases. Otherwise to use a technical term, we’re fucked.

 

[elbows]

Data including age range of deaths so far.