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ICC public forum, 20 February: How can internationalists respond to capitalist wars?

A

Alfredo

Well-Known Member
International Communist Current public forum
2pm 20 February,
Conway Hall, Red Lion Square, London WC1, nearest tube Holborn

How can internationalists respond to capitalist wars?

The illusions about Nobel Peace Prize winner Barack Obama are fading fast. Under his presidency, American imperialism is stepping up its military presence in Afghanistan and Pakistan, and surrounding Iran with a barrage of missiles. War is spreading throughout the Middle East, central Asia and the Horn of Africa. Meanwhile the ruling class in Britain is treating us to the spectacle of the Chilcot inquiry into the Iraq war, which is based on the ridiculous premise that imperialist massacres should conform to the niceties of international law.

This forum will discuss the real causes and aims of the wars currently ravaging the planet, with a particular focus on the title question: how can internationalists, the small but growing number of those who consistently oppose all capitalist wars, respond to this accelerating slide towards war?

Short presentation followed by open discussion. All welcome.
 
Getting some internationalists from different groups and traditions together in a room discussing with each other would actually be a step forward. Hence we sent this invite to the Anarchist Federation, Solidarity Federation and the Communist Workers Organisation:

Dear comrades
In the recent period we have seen a growing potential for a more fraternal and constructive discussion between the internationalists of the communist left and those in the anarchist movement who also defend internationalist positions. For example, the publication in the ICC press of statements by the KRAS group in Russia on the wars in Chechnya and Georgia; discussion s between the ICC’s French section and the CNT-AIT; joint intervention in the power workers’ strikes in Mexico by the ICC’s Mexican section and the Libertarian Socialist Group and the Metropolitan Anarchist Project; participation by members of the ICC in AF meetings in Manchester and London; participation by AF members at public meetings of the ICC and the CWO in Manchester. We think that these are positive developments and should continue, since such direct contact is the best way to confront disagreements, misunderstandings and mistaken conceptions. We would thus encourage comrades of the AF and Solfed as well as other ‘non-aligned’ anarchist internationalists to come to the meeting we are organising on 20 February in London to discuss precisely the question of how internationalists should respond to capitalist wars. This invitation obviously includes those who identify with the left communist tradition, such as the CWO.
Looking forward to your response
Fraternally
Alf, for the ICC
 
The icc is now happy, to invite to it's meeting, the AF, whose politics "serve the Capitalist state rather than the working class" is also "anarchoid leftism" and who "try to build a wall between revolutionary organisations and people" and you also couldn't ignore "the reality of the destructive part they play for capital" How times change, they are no longer "pernicious" then ?
 
Evidently we are in the process of rethinking this position and this invitation is part of that. Most comrades (in the UK at least - the AF is not so well known to ICC comrades outside it) consider that the previous position was mistaken - and that this has been demonstrated by the fact that there are evidently a lot of people in the AF who are clear about internationalism and who are open to discussion with left communists.
 
Good, I would say that there was rather a lot of rethinking to do, given the corner you've painted yourselves into. Does the entire world take a step towards the icc, or does the icc take a step towards the world ?
 
Alfredo said:
International Communist Current public forum
How can internationalists respond to capitalist wars?
Click to expand...


Some groups are so internationalist, they don't even talk to most other groups, so can that be put on as first item on the aganda,, ''what is an internationalist '' ?
Second item, proposals for ''what to do with the phoney internationalists'' ?

Alfredo said:
This forum will discuss the real causes and aims of the wars currently ravaging the planet,
Click to expand...

Is there any group that doesn't say it already has the answer ?
That it knows full well what ''causes'', and the ''aims'' of wars ?
Which was the last war, opposed by 'protest' that was brought to a standstill ?

Wouldn't it be better asking ''how does the cpitalist class get away with warmongering ?
How does it manage to split the 'left'[in loosest terms] into so many 'sects', as its already known that all sectarianism is religious based.
What means and methods do they use to divide any opposition, to keep the working classes split, which is fully reflected in the 'practice' of all the 'left'.

Alfredo said:
with a particular focus on the title question: how can internationalists, the small but growing number of those who consistently oppose all capitalist wars,
Click to expand...

In other words, how can the people organising the conference [self proclaimed internationalists.] manage to convince people to follow them as opposed to following any other group.
 
I don't think the questions posed by Sabatical are incompatible with the way we are posing the question. A discussion of 'how the capitalist class gets away with it' is certainly relevant. But I don't think the aim of the meeting is to get people to 'follow' us. It is a more modest one of discussing what internationalism means in theory and practice, how to distinguish its genuine forms (of which we don't think we have a monopoly) from the many false ones (eg Trotskyists and Stalinists who think internationalism means supporting so-called 'anti-imperialist' nationalist movements), and how those who are agreed on the basics can work together.
 
Oh bugger thought this thread was about the International Criminal Court was going to pop round if it was :(

As you were!
 
no one has ever made these jokes before, ever.
It's true the name sounds better in languages such as French and Spanish: Courant Communiste Internationale, Corriente Comunista Internacional. And they don't give a shit about cricket there
 
Everything sounds better in French or Spanish ;)

Alf, out of curiosity, what do the ICC suggest would be the best practical response to war from a communist point of view right now?
 
You could form a discussion circle, but not a political group devoted to the overthrow of the system....

In Bloom: I don't think the question can be posed unless it's made more concrete: are we for example talking about areas where war is going on right now, where workers are directly enrolled for war on a large scale, or 'far away' wars fought by professonal armies? For us in the UK, we are obviously facing the latter type of situation and in the absence of a real class movement against the war, our activity is going to be largely concerned with 'propaganda'. Indeed, in front line areas (like Israel and Palestine, for example), given the lack of a massive resistance against the war and the strength of nationalist propaganda, revolutionaries who publicly defend internationalist ideas are going to be a tiny minority and merely making their views public requires considerable courage. They can't provoke class actions against the war when there is no such action - although they can make use of moments of class struggle to show the link between austerity and war, and show the similarities between class struggles on both sides of the national divide. For example in Gaza there were strikes by schoolteachers against the Hamas government and strikes in Israel are a fairly common occurence.
 
Alfredo said:
I don't think the question can be posed unless it's made more concrete: are we for example talking about areas where war is going on right now, where workers are directly enrolled for war on a large scale, or 'far away' wars fought by professonal armies? For us in the UK, we are obviously facing the latter type of situation and in the absence of a real class movement against the war, our activity is going to be largely concerned with 'propaganda'. Indeed, in front line areas (like Israel and Palestine, for example), given the lack of a massive resistance against the war and the strength of nationalist propaganda, revolutionaries who publicly defend internationalist ideas are going to be a tiny minority and merely making their views public requires considerable courage. They can't provoke class actions against the war when there is no such action - although they can make use of moments of class struggle to show the link between austerity and war, and show the similarities between class struggles on both sides of the national divide. For example in Gaza there were strikes by schoolteachers against the Hamas government and strikes in Israel are a fairly common occurence.
Click to expand...
I'd probably agree with that broadly, though I do think that it is possible for workers in particular industries to take action against "far away" wars. Workers in transport or arms manufacture, for example, could disrupt the supply chain in a war. Of course that's not likely to happen in the near future, with the current low level of struggle we're lucky if we see any kind of halfway effective action against direct attacks on our own conditions.

Also, while at the moment most action that we can take against war in the UK is fairly tokenistic and not particularly effective, it could be argued that it's useful in building international links.
 
sabatical said:
But, But, butt, couldn't they hold the opinion, that they don't have an opinion ?

But that they'd like to form one ?
Click to expand...
Well then eventually they would form one, which would constitute thinking that they "know the answer", wouldn't it? Criticising people and organisations for having a clear idea of what they think is a bit weak.
 
Agree that particular groups of workers may take class action against 'far away wars'. In Italy, if I recall, there were spontaneous walk-outs in response to the 1991 gulf war. Or was it 2003? In any case, such developments are not to be ruled out. And I think that international links are vital, since it prepares the way for having a much broader response to imperialist wars in the future.
 
In Bloom said:
Well then eventually they would form one, which would constitute thinking that they "know the answer", wouldn't it?
Click to expand...

No, It would mean they would 'have an opinion', not necessarily, the 'answer '.
And the opinion may simply be a direction for working towards an answer.

In Bloom said:
Criticising people and organisations for having a clear idea of what they think is a bit weak.
Click to expand...

That argument is full of wilt.
Criticising the organisation, the intended structure of a conference, or the concept that is being used, is not criticising 'people'.

So let us walk down the lane of memory, the First international Workingmens Association, had an international programme, so they had an 'international approach.
So would it be of use to define it ?
To clarify.
To circulate for consideration and study prior to the conference ?
Is it not simply possible to circulate documents early, rather than arrive and 'lip flap' for a day, with no real consideration of what is required ?

The bakuninists also had an international programme, but they were refused allowance to join the IWA because their version did not match the version of the IWA.

They were asked to change it, so they agreed, but after joining on second try, they ignored what they had agreed to, and tried to implement their own version.

So two versions to consider, a disagreement that eventually split the international, as it also turned out that the Bakuninist had also not dissolved their previous organisation into the branches of the IWA.

From that split, and none clarification, the whole of Europe from then has been stulted by 'nationalism'.

Bakunin had a policy of 'Pan Slavic Nationalism', which he apparently dropped, but never wrote a retraction, the Germans under Hitler had a policy of Pan German Nationalism, which was taken from Bakunins.

If at the end of the conference, a decision has been taken to research all earlier concepts of 'internationalism', to re-print and circulate them to all who attended the conference, plus to any other groups, a step forwards may have been made.
But only if, at a later time, another conference is called, after all having time to read the documents.
 
sabatical said:
No, It would mean they would 'have an opinion', not necessarily, the 'answer '.
And the opinion may simply be a direction for working towards an answer.
Click to expand...
My interest in arguing with you about semantics is limited, to say the least.

That argument is full of wilt.
Criticising the organisation, the intended structure of a conference, or the concept that is being used, is not criticising 'people'.
Click to expand...
"Criticising people and organisations" :rolleyes:

If at the end of the conference, a decision has been taken to research all earlier concepts of 'internationalism', to re-print and circulate them to all who attended the conference, plus to any other groups, a step forwards may have been made.
But only if, at a later time, another conference is called, after all having time to read the documents.
Click to expand...
Or they could just skip wasting everybody's time and just have a discussion about the situation in the here and now on the assumption that most people are sufficiently intelligent to have read up on a subject before coming to a position on it.
 
At the moment we're not talking about a conference. We are talking about a very small meeting to which we have invited two key anarchist groups in the UK - the AF and Solfed. We still hope that some comrades from these groups will come, although as yet we have had no response from the organisations. That would be step forward towards creating the possibility of a united response by left communists and anarchist internationalists. But first they need to have the face to face discussions, to confront past mistakes and existing sources of distrust, and to explore how far they really do agree.
In Bloom - are you not in the AF? Have you discussed our invitation in your branch?
 
I don't think we've met as a group since the invitation went out. To be honest, London's a bit far off for us, though we have a fairly good relationship with the local ICC comrades where we are (Merseyside), so I couldn't see us being opposed to it on principle.
 
I wouldn't expect you to come from Liverpool, but I would expect you to talk to your comrades in London about it.
 
A very good meeting. Two AF comrades came and another ex-AF now closer to Solfed, two comrades from the CWO, a number of ICC sympathisers and a Trot (International Bolshevik Tendency). There was a high degree of agreement on basic internationalist positions and what they imply, incuding the need to create a framework for further discussion between the different currents and eventual common work. Not with the Trot obviously but having him there enabled people to see more clearly what they have in common. We will publish a fuller report soon
 
Alfredo said:
A very good meeting. Two AF comrades came and another ex-AF now closer to Solfed, two comrades from the CWO, a number of ICC sympathisers and a Trot (International Bolshevik Tendency). There was a high degree of agreement on basic internationalist positions and what they imply, incuding the need to create a framework for further discussion between the different currents and eventual common work. Not with the Trot obviously but having him there enabled people to see more clearly what they have in common. We will publish a fuller report soon
Click to expand...

Then that would appear to be a road to nowhere.

So the class struggle and how the working classes see politics and protest does not count?

It's all reducable to what the groupuscules think?
 
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