Ian Tomlinson CPS verdict: "no realistic prospect of conviction"

[London_Calling]

In which case it is clearly the correct decision to have made on the basis that whichever elements of all 3 autopsies the CPS decided lo lead as evidence could easily be refuted by any number of medical expert witnesses.

The prospect of proving beyond all reasonable doubt that a blow/push was the actual cause of death would therefore be 0.

Even if they could get past that little hurdle, the CPS would also have to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that the person who dealt the blow acted in a premeditated or criminally negligent fashion - extremely difficult if not impossible.

You're conflating tests. It is for the prosecution to convince the jury so they are satisfied 'beyond all reasonable doubt'. The burden on the CPS in deciding whether to bring a prosecution is much lower 'a reasonable chance of success'.

It was an assault at the very least by any common law of statutory definition, possibly ABH. A jury in London, offered more, might well have taken that as well.

 

[butchersapron]

As has been said, there would have been difficulty proving a charge of manslaughter in court - however, the CPS have recently charged and convicted someone of murder even with Patel's autopsy saying something else, and there are questions that they could have raised about the credibility of both Patel and his autopsy of Tomlinson. It would have been difficult, but it would have been a much better course of action than this is.

What's the normal process for deciding who carries out an autopsy? The reports i've seen say the police 'commissioned' this patel one - is that the way things are normally done or is that a departure from normal process?

 

[agricola]

What's the normal process for deciding who carries out an autopsy? The reports i've seen say the police 'commissioned' this patel one - is that the way things are normally done or is that a departure from normal process?

No idea, sorry. I would assume there must be some sort of rota as to who is on duty for an area at any given time. DB would probably know more.

 

[butchersapron]

No idea, sorry. I would assume there must be some sort of rota as to who is on duty for an area at any given time. DB would probably know more.

That's what i assuming - it goes onto the spike and is taken 'as is'. The fact this is one reported as 'commissioned' is setting alarm bells off.

 

[Cobbles]

The CPS isn't the defence cobblers. All 3 autopsies are available to defence and prosecution. The CPS doesn't actually make the cases either.

It's reasonable to presume that the CPS would need to lead evidence to connect the policeman's action to Tomlinson's death - no?

That evidence would have to be based on the autopsies amplified by whatever medical experts they would need to establish a causal link.

The defence would therefore shop for whatever medical experts they needed to break the link - "Q:could the abdominal bleeding have been caused by a spontaneous failure of the deceased's cirrohotic liver? A:That's a possibility." - any such exchange would have to be commented on in a judge's summing up (whether murder or manslaughter).

 

[xes]

big question now is, what the fuck is done about this? We can't go on with such a blatently fucking corrput police force/judicianal system.

 

[Cobbles]

big question now is, what the fuck is done about this? We can't go on with such a blatently fucking corrput police force/judicianal system.

How is the CPS "corrupt?

 

[xes]

How is the CPS "corrupt?

the result of this case speaks for itself. It was a blatent case of a policemans actions resulting in an innocent mans death. If it were me, who hit a copper with a stick, who then fell to the ground and died, there'd be no fucking question. It's not fucking rocket science. This is corruption at it's most fucking blatent. And the more I think about it, the fucking angrier I get

 

[agricola]

It's reasonable to presume that the CPS would need to lead evidence to connect the policeman's action to Tomlinson's death - no?

That evidence would have to be based on the autopsies amplified by whatever medical experts they would need to establish a causal link.

The defence would therefore shop for whatever medical experts they needed to break the link - "Q:could the abdominal bleeding have been caused by a spontaneous failure of the deceased's cirrohotic liver? A:That's a possibility." - any such exchange would have to be commented on in a judge's summing up (whether murder or manslaughter).

Indeed that might have happened Cobbles, but the point you seem determined to miss is that there was evidence that they could have used to attack the credibility of Patel and his autopsy of Tomlinson, not the least of which is that both medical experts that were brought in (by the cops and Tomlinson's family) disagreed with him. If Patel's first autopsy is the sole reason why they think that there would not have been a realistic prospect of conviction (which is what it appears to be) then something is deeply wrong.

 

[Spymaster]

It was a blatent case of a policemans actions resulting in an innocent mans death.

You can't say that without evidence proving it. What we can say is that something has gone badly wrong somewhere because a jury isn't even going to get to see the evidence that exists.

 

[danny la rouge]

Convenient that the time-limit for a common assault charge has lapsed.

 

[xes]

You can't say that without evidence proving it. What we can say is that something has gone badly wrong somewhere because a jury isn't even going to get to see the evidence that exists.

but the "evidence" is there for all to see. The video which shows Ian Thomlison being struck by a dirty pig cunt, and then Ian Thomlinson died. From. His. Injuries. (it's all over the internet, it's clear to see)The police force are cunts, and so are those who support them. I just hope and pray that there is now massive civil unrest over this. This is a case of blatent lies from the police, covering up a death. It's fucking wrong. You do know the difference between right and wrong, don't you?

 

[Shevek]

the result of this case speaks for itself. It was a blatent case of a policemans actions resulting in an innocent mans death. If it were me, who hit a copper with a stick, who then fell to the ground and died, there'd be no fucking question. It's not fucking rocket science. This is corruption at it's most fucking blatent. And the more I think about it, the fucking angrier I get

This is what I wanted to say. Just heard this story on 6 music news. My thoughts were if I as a normal member of the public had thwacked a policeman/woman with a baton and they had subsequently died I would be in jail for a long time for murder.

 

[Kaka Tim]

Absolutely as expected.

The police will never face charges for their behaviour in public order situations - its an unwritten law. I dont think a single case has come to court ever.

I hope the met get sued to fuck by the family - becasue that is about the only way the cunts can be restrained from battering people in the streets.
The other way is to give them another poll tax riot/brixton 81 type lesson.

The only positive thing to come out of this is that the excuses, cover up and corruption of the met and the criminal justice system are there for all to see.

 

[xes]

The only positive thing to come out of this is that the excuses, cover up and corruption of the met and the criminal justice system are there for all to see.

not for all to see, some still seem completly blind to the facts.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

There are very obvious public interests in this case coming to trial: need to hold the police to account, the need of the bereaved family.

There is a very obvious police interest in this case not coming to trial: protection of their reputation and authority.

The CPS has chosen sides; it has sided with another part of the criminal justice system against the public.

Every opportunity should be taken to point out as vocally as possible that:

• this choice was not forced on the CPS by the evidence;

• the Tomlison family need their 'day in court'

• the police must be subject to the laws they enforce (including trial by their peers)

How can we help to make sure this happens?

Louis MacNeice

 

[Spymaster]

but the "evidence" is there for all to see. The video which shows Ian Thomlison being struck by a dirty pig cunt, and then Ian Thomlinson died. From. His. Injuries. (it's all over the internet, it's clear to see)The police force are cunts, and so are those who support them. I just hope and pray that there is now massive civil unrest over this. This is a case of blatent lies from the police, covering up a death. It's fucking wrong. You do know the difference between right and wrong, don't you?

Well yes, I think so.

What we have so far is a copper knocking Tomlinson over. Of that there's no doubt. Tomlinson died later, no doubt there either. Then we've got three pathologists reports, one from a negligent and possibly corrupt Dr Patel saying it was a heart attack, and two from presumably upstanding pathologists, that agree that the cause of death was internal bleeding. Now for your statement that "the copper blatently killed him" to hold true, we'd have to establish that the baton strike or push caused the internal bleeding, if indeed that's what he died from. That the internal bleeding wasn't caused by an incident before or after he was assaulted by the copper. That's the bit that's missing.

Now for some reason the CPS have decided that the evidence of two upstanding pathologists, for some reason won't be heard because of the evidence of one corrupt one. That's the bit that I'm not getting here.

 

[DotCommunist]

Oh aye the citizen journalism aspect of the G20 protest has shown it all up as the rotten mob-handed bollocks that it is from our police.

They'll have to be a bit slyer from now on I reckon and you can be sure the misuse of the terrosim leg. against photographers at protests was a direct result of this.

Some lazy hack from the grauny quoted me berating the police wrt how citizen journalism exposed them this time. Didn't get any money and was called a student officer. The swine.

I just hope this doesn't rest, I mean it is so blatant.

 

[butchersapron]

Now for some reason the CPS have decided that the evidence of two upstanding pathologists, for some reason won't be heard because of the evidence of one corrupt one. That's the bit that I'm not getting here.

That seems the most straightforward bit to me. To quote Louis:

The CPS has chosen sides; it has sided with another part of the criminal justice system against the public.

 

[butchersapron]

Oh aye the citizen journalism aspect of the G20 protest has shown it all up as the rotten mob-handed bollocks that it is from our police.

They'll have to be a bit slyer from now on I reckon and you can be sure the misuse of the terrosim leg. against photographers at protests was a direct result of this.

Some lazy hack from the grauny quoted me berating the police wrt how citizen journalism exposed them this time. Didn't get any money and was called a student officer. The swine.

I just hope this doesn't rest, I mean it is so blatant.

The lesson is that Never Again without a Camera was always based on naivety and only gets you so far.

 

[xes]

Now for some reason the CPS have decided that the evidence of two upstanding pathologists, for some reason won't be heard because of the evidence of one corrupt one. That's the bit that I'm not getting here.

the bit you aren't getting, is the bit where they're all corrupt liars, who will back their mates in the force, no matter what. I don't know why you can't see it, pretty much everyone else can. It's a plain as day.

 

[Teaboy]

the bit you aren't getting, is the bit where they're all corrupt liars, who will back their mates in the force, no matter what. I don't know why you can't see it, pretty much everyone else can. It's a plain as day.

I don't believe they are all corrupt liars. This decision however does nothing but weaken that belief.

 

[xes]

stick with that man, it'll come Your hatred will grow, the more you read about shit like this. Plant that seed and water it. Then get fucking angry.

 

[ViolentPanda]

How is the CPS "corrupt?

The CPS isn't, necessarily. It's institutional practices however, with reference to homicide by members of police forces, are, otherwise there wouldn't be such a gaping deficit of officers charged.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I don't believe they are all corrupt liars. This decision however does nothing but weaken that belief.

Problem is that they don't all need to be "corrupt liars" for the laws that they're supposed to enforce to be undermined. All you need is a culture of acceptance.

 

[ymu]

The CPS isn't, necessarily. It's institutional practices however, with reference to homicide by members of police forces, are, otherwise there wouldn't be such a gaping deficit of officers charged.

Indeed.

Hopes were high when the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) was launched in April 2004 that there would now be a reformed police complaints system - providing legal rights for complainants - that was above all independent, so that police were not investigating themselves. After 20 years working for a housing and social care agency in inner-city Birmingham, I joined the IPCC, as one of 18 new commissioners, with the aim of righting injustices. We claimed to be the most powerful civilian oversight body in the world, and we prepared to change the world. Five years on, I decided to leave. So what had gone wrong?

Only around 100 IPCC investigations, plus 150 police investigations "managed" by the IPCC, are undertaken each year, compared to 29,000 complaints. The majority of those 100 are not even complaints about day-to-day policing, but concern incidents where Article 2 of the Human Rights Act - the police's duty to safeguard life - may be involved, and by law require IPCC investigation. Some, such as the shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes at Stockwell tube in 2005 and possibly the death last week of Ian Tomlinson at the G20 protests in London, rightly attract great public concern. But the question, "Do you have to be dead before the IPCC takes an interest in your case?", is too near the truth.

...

Under the system the IPCC replaced, few complaints were substantiated, a tiny number of officers faced discipline, and police investigations were strung out over years. Figures from 2007/08 show that nothing much has changed under the IPCC. In that year, just 11% of complaints were upheld, but your chances of success varied wildly, depending on where you complained. In West Yorkshire or Humberside, 96% of all complaints were dismissed, but in Bedfordshire 20% were upheld. Even more worrying, just 1% of allegations of serious assault were substantiated. And as a result of complaints, only 15 officers lost their jobs, one was demoted, and 24 were fined a few days' pay - a total of 0.028% of the national workforce.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/apr/08/police-complaints-commission

 

[e19896]

The police officer caught on video during last year's G20 protests striking a man who later died will not face criminal charges, the Crown Prosecution Service announced today. This not MURDER? http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2009/apr/07/g20-police-assault-video The met are just scum Police Pointing a 50,000-volt Taser at a Group of People Lying on the Floor http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6130949.ece
The Met has agreed to pay settlements to some of those arrested in that raid., admitting that the whole raid was illegal.

 

[Streathamite]

To add to what VP said (which is spot on), members of The CPS are not personally corrupt. it's the relationship and culture of acceptance. The dibble are the people they work closest with, so they're conditioned, day in, day out, to see the cops' side of it, and to take more seriously the difficulties of prosecuting them, than the need to rein in their transgressions (or, in short, the need for justice).

 

[DotCommunist]

The lesson is that Never Again without a Camera was always based on naivety and only gets you so far.

of course, its just that the days when the 'free' press could make up total lies unchallenged by any other evidence is numbered- not that the conflicting evidence gets anymore than this sort of gross contempt. And for people willing to look this shit is stark. The ability of authoritarian r/w sorts to fool themselves is slightly weakened. The comfort of telegraph lies is open to clear and obvious attack by boots on the ground. Only so far, sure. But better than it was.

 

[xes]

To add to what VP said (which is spot on), members of The CPS are not personally corrupt. it's the relationship and culture of acceptance. The dibble are the people they work closest with, so they're conditioned, day in, day out, to see the cops' side of it, and to take more seriously the difficulties of prosecuting them, than the need to rein in their transgressions (or, in short, the need for justice).

which is a round-about way of saying "corruption"