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Ian Tomlinson CPS verdict: "no realistic prospect of conviction"

However, morally, in terms of what meets most of our deep-seated instincts as to what is right, there is a huge chasm; the Law is not doing what it should, from the POV of the Man On The Clapham Omnibus, which is the most worrying thing opf all.
Absolutely spot on. Which makes it all the more pathetic that the gobshites who jump up and down and make all sorts of ridiculous fucking claims have managed to obscure the genuine fucking issues that do exist by inventing many that do not.

The simple fact is that they are not at all interested in making the system better for the future so long as they hang out some individual to dry and fuck whether or not that is fair and just according to the system we have at the moment ... and fuck the fact that doing so will make not the slightest fucking difference to stopping it happening again in the future. :(
 
I quite agree.

I take it you complained and / or assisted her to do so ...

No, I didn't because I don't think it will make a blind bit of difference. Every time i've ever complained about anything I've had a bland e-mail saying how much the person receives my letter agrees with my concerns and nothing has ever ever happened.

If you quite agree though, and with your views on complaining, then presumably *you've* complained. Particularly since you are an ex serving officer - your views would carry much more weight than mine. What did they say?
 
No, I didn't because I don't think it will make a blind bit of difference. Every time i've ever complained about anything I've had a bland e-mail saying how much the person receives my letter agrees with my concerns and nothing has ever ever happened.
How fucking predictable ... the usual pathetic excuse. :rolleyes:

If you can't be bothered complaining don't come moaning here that everything is shit. You (and all those like you who try to justify your own idleness in not making formal complaints) are just as much part of the fucking problem as the officers who do the wrong thing.

If you quite agree though, and with your views on complaining, then presumably *you've* complained. Particularly since you are an ex serving officer - your views would carry much more weight than mine. What did they say?
I complain about things that I witness that I consider merit complaining about, yes. Sometimes they merit action being taken and I pursue them until it is. Sometimes there is nothing meaningful to be done and I am satisfied that the complaint is recorded and thus becomes part of the statistics which build the bigger picture of how the police operate and where they fuck up that we can all use as a stick to beat the organisation, directly or through the organisations that exist to monitor those things. I have the ability to keep things in proportion so I have no expectation that an officer is going to be summarily dismissed and stripped of all their pension rights simply because the were a bit rude or over-aggressive in a difficult situation.

So MY complaints are in there, forming part of the stats?

Where the fuck are yours? (Oh yeah, they're missing ... so anyone looking at the stats will think that everything's just peachy ... :rolleyes:)
 
The words you're looking for "I'm sorry d-b. I realise that I was grossly exaggerating and when I persisted with my ridiculous generalisations it was no surprise you got the arse with me."

But, of course, you'll never use them ... :rolleyes:
I apologised to winjer, but not to you because winjer was polite in his posts, whereas you've been a complete cock in yours from your first reply. Note that was your fist reply to me, not after I'd 'persisted' in anything. Stop behaving like a total bellend and you might find people react a bit differently to you, and the discussions you're involved in might be a bit more productive for all concerned.
 
I'm still convinced based on my conversations with several coppers at that mayday, and up in Scotland that when it has happened in a largescale way it must have been at least tacitly authorised by someone reasonably high up the chain.
I think it's more likely that it's overlooked, rather than an authorised, along with other regular minor misconduct.
 
How fucking predictable ... the usual pathetic excuse. :rolleyes:

If you can't be bothered complaining don't come moaning here that everything is shit. You (and all those like you who try to justify your own idleness in not making formal complaints) are just as much part of the fucking problem as the officers who do the wrong thing.
And you wonder why people call you a cunt? A pathetic excuse, that the police IGNORE complaints (just like the 80 or so that the IPCC thought investigation worthy from the G20, where NO investigation was carried through) You think that people should batter their head against a wall for no reason? Becasue that is what complaining to the police, about the police is like. The only thing which is pathetic here, is piss poor excuses for WHY these things are never followed through, and the piss poor explanation for why it's like this in the first place. Police don't like it up'em, and as much as you think this is all just a load of cunts who hate the police, that's bollocks. It's the police who don't like to be investigated when they fuck over the public. And it shows itself to be the case time and time again. You can call me what ever you like for thinking like this, you can even fucking get litigious on my arse if it makes you feel all big and strong. I don't care. What is is what is. Old bill are cunts when it comes to convictong their own, and complaints go largely ignored. And you think it's pathetic that people can't be arsed anymore? That's fucking rich.
 
If you can't be bothered complaining don't come moaning here that everything is shit. You (and all those like you who try to justify your own idleness in not making formal complaints) are just as much part of the fucking problem as the officers who do the wrong thing.

So, somebody who witnesses a wrongdoing and for whatever reason fails to complain is as much a part of the problem as the perpetrators. That’s an interesting thesis.

To begin with, having read much of your defence of police officers, I’m actually quite confused as to actually knowing when an officer is doing the wrong thing. Prior to the Tomlinson case had I seen a PC attack someone from behind with a baton I’d have thought that a bit rum; possibly not the way for a Bobby to act; you know, the wrong thing to do.

However, you’ve convinced me that I can’t take such things at face value; that things viewed in black and white are best ignored for the more logical grey explanations.

“Being as much part of the ******** problem as the officers who do the wrong thing.”

About three years ago as I was out and about wheeling myself on my estate when I saw a group of police officers, some standing, some in a crouched pose, all very animated. Being a naturally inquisitive type I mooched over to get a closer goosey. In all some seven uniformed officers had a non-uniformed person on the deck; and, were giving him a bit of a hiding – well, they were hitting him with fists and kicking him with their feet; so, unless I misconstrued their actions I’ll stick with hiding.

A bit upset, I had a flashback to many years ago when I was set upon by a gang of a dozen; I moved closer and challenged these people. One of their number turned suddenly with no little aggression telling me to ‘****** off! Or we’ll nick you’.

In rather a cowardly way I did ‘****** off’, wheeling myself away a bit lively. When I got home later I felt guilty and decided to phone the local police station to find out what had happened. Apparently, nothing had happened; the local nick could find no trace of an incident at the address or locale that I gave. As the Chair of my local TRA I also had the contact detail of the local community police sergeant (don’t shoot me down if I’ve got the terminology wrong, it was a few years back). Again, after making checks he told me that there were no reports of incidents in that area at time I’d reported – indeed, it had been incident free for some weeks.

I was left feeling a bit encounters-of-the-third-kindish. I chatted to a few neighbours. They’d been at work at the time. None of the local kids could help – indeed if any had been around I’m sure the Bill would have had a bit more to contend with.

Since reading d-b’s condemnation; I now feel as though I’m as much a part of the ******* problem as the officers who do the wrong thing; and, I hang my head in shame – unless of course I took what the officers were doing out of context in which case I’m just part of the Collective that doesn’t understand the complexities of modern day policing.
 
How fucking predictable ... the usual pathetic excuse. :rolleyes:

If you can't be bothered complaining don't come moaning here that everything is shit. You (and all those like you who try to justify your own idleness in not making formal complaints) are just as much part of the fucking problem as the officers who do the wrong thing.
perhaps if the police behaved in the manner we're led to believe they should then there wouldn't need to be quite the volume of complaints there is. if people don't complain as much as you would like, perhaps it's because the police routinely find, no matter the evidence, that nothing wrong has in fact occurred.
 
An alternative view might be that since complaints are also something that police fuck up, every additional complaint that they get and dismiss can be taken and promoted as a positive statistic.
It's an alternative view ... but every time I have seen the stats about how few complaints are substantiated / result in any action used it is as a stick to beat the police with about how ineffective their complaint investigation systems are ...

(Thanks for linking to an example of police officers never being charged with using excessive force, by the way. It's always nice to have proof positive that I am talking absolute shite when I say that if the evidence is there they are ...)
 
The only thing which is pathetic here, is piss poor excuses for WHY these things are never followed through, and the piss poor explanation for why it's like this in the first place.
I have not made any excuse for why complaints are not followed through. I have not seen anyone else do so. Personally I believe we should resource the IPCC properly and transfer all responsibility for initially investigating all complaints to them (with scope for them to refer cases they consider entirely minor for management action in accordance with usual employment practice and procedures).

But people need to go into the process with realistic expectations about what is proportionate in terms of investigative effort and any sanction and not get the arse just because the copper is not summarily dismissed and stripped of their pension benefits for some minor transgression.
 
However, you’ve convinced me that I can’t take such things at face value; that things viewed in black and white are best ignored for the more logical grey explanations.
If you witness something you believe is inappropriate then you should report it. But you are not entitled to expect that your definition of it as inappropriate will be definitive - there may well be an explanation / defence / circumstances you are not aware of.

Assuming that your perception of something is right and everything else is wrong / a lie is only ever going to result in disappointment.

Since reading d-b’s condemnation; I now feel as though I’m as much a part of the ******* problem as the officers who do the wrong thing; and, I hang my head in shame – unless of course I took what the officers were doing out of context in which case I’m just part of the Collective that doesn’t understand the complexities of modern day policing.
Don't be so fucking stupid. You did exactly what was reasonable to do (though I would not suggest actually intervening in a situation you know nothing about unless there are exceptionally clear circumstances or need). You could / should have gathered information about the officers identity (numbers / vehicles) and made a formal complaint when the initial contact led to suspicions something was being covered up but what you did was what we need to do.
 
I have not made any excuse for why complaints are not followed through. I have not seen anyone else do so. Personally I believe we should resource the IPCC properly and transfer all responsibility for initially investigating all complaints to them (with scope for them to refer cases they consider entirely minor for management action in accordance with usual employment practice and procedures).

But people need to go into the process with realistic expectations about what is proportionate in terms of investigative effort and any sanction and not get the arse just because the copper is not summarily dismissed and stripped of their pension benefits for some minor transgression.
No, fair enough, you've not been making excuses for why complaints are largley ignored, but that doesn't change the fact that they are. And to call that a pathetic excuse for not wanting to complain, isn't really justified. If you know that any complaint, unless you're very lucky, will fall on deaf ears, then what's the point? You're not going to get any justice out of it, no plod will get investigated/fired over it. So it's time better spent getting on with your life. I know that's defeating the object, and it's not how it should be, but it's how it is. And there are valid reasons, it's not just lazyness like you implied in your post. The only real expectations you could possibly go into a case against the police, is expecting to loose your case. i know it's not your fault that this is the way, but it is the way these things tend to go.
 
How fucking predictable ... the usual pathetic excuse. :rolleyes:

If you can't be bothered complaining don't come moaning here that everything is shit.

Ever thought of being polite? Not something that comes naturally to you, clearly, but you could give it a try. And where did I moan that everything is shit? You’re just making stuff up.

You (and all those like you who try to justify your own idleness in not making formal complaints) are just as much part of the fucking problem as the officers who do the wrong thing.

Ooo I’m part of the ‘Urban Collective’ now :cool:

I’ve seen you use this argument before, and it’s dishonest. As it happens I have gone in for complaining to the authorities quite a lot during my time, but I don’t happen to have complained about that particular issue. If I made an official complaint about everything I felt could be improved (a) I’d be spending all my time doing that (unlike those like you some of us have to work you know) (b) I’d be wasting the time of people who should presumably be getting on with their work and if they have half a brain anyway they’re going to be quite aware that something’s wrong (c) I’d soon be marked down by those like you as a professional complainer so my letters would be ignored anyway.

You’re now saying, though, that unless someone makes an official complaint about a specific action, then they are equally responsible for that action as the perpetrator – “just as much part of the fucking problem”. If we look past the bluster, though, you agreed with me “totally” yet you didn’t complain about that particular issue either. Not only does that make you just as much part of the fucking problem as the officers who do the wrong thing, it makes you a hypocrite.

As it happens, I *have* complained about a couple of things recently. First was when the Israelis killed the peace activists on the Gaza ships. Did *you* complain? If you didn’t then you (and all those like you who try to justify your own idleness in not making formal complaints) are just as much part of the fucking problem as the Israelis who did the killing.

The other was to the Catholic church about their priests’ abusing young children in their charge. Did *you* complain about that? If you didn’t then clearly you (and all those like you who try to justify your own idleness in not making formal complaints) are just as much part of the fucking problem as the priests who did the abusing.

Are you and those like you just as much part of the fucking problem as the priests who did the abusing db? Is that what you’re saying? No, you’re just using another tactic because you don’t like other people criticizing the authorities. Alongside swearing at people gratuitously to provoke them and picking someone up on a small error in procedure so you can blow it up as if it’s the most important part of the argument.

I complain about things that I witness that I consider merit complaining about, yes.

Ah, so for everybody else it’s anything they say on a bulletin board, for you it’s something that you actually witness: another bit of hypocrisy.

I have no expectation that an officer is going to be summarily dismissed and stripped of all their pension rights simply because the were a bit rude or over-aggressive in a difficult situation.

Where did I suggest this simply because they were a bit rude? You’re making stuff up again.

So MY complaints are in there, forming part of the stats?

Well whoopey do. That miraculously wipes your conscience clean of any stigma does it.

Where the fuck are yours? (Oh yeah, they're missing ... so anyone looking at the stats will think that everything's just peachy ... :rolleyes:)

You really do have a persecution complex don’t you. You want people to have a go at you, and when someone doesn’t, then you have a go anyway to try to get them to have a go back. Then you can get into your preferred mode of ‘ooo look they’re all calling me names. The urban collective is persecuting me again’.

Grow up.
 
Thanks for linking to an example of police officers never being charged with using excessive force, by the way. It's always nice to have proof positive that I am talking absolute shite when I say that if the evidence is there they are ...
*cough*
"The CPS concluded that the evidence relating to some of the Claimant's facial injuries could not be explained away and that on the balance of probabilities they were cause by deliberate strikes by officers in circumstances which could not be justified by the reasonable use of force. However, the CPS concluded that the assault was not provable to the criminal standard."

"The IPCC concluded that there was sufficient evidence to bring disciplinary proceedings but against only one officer for one specific act. [...] This act is by far and away the least important of the Claimant's concerns. A disciplinary hearing was conducted which was restricted to addressing this very limited part of the events"

source

I don't think Babar Ahmad or his solicitors would agree with your contention that this is an example of the complaints system leading to prosecution.
 
*cough*

also... (from the originally linked article)
An original Met inquiry ruled no officer should be disciplined and no criminal charges were brought. However, after his successful civil proceedings for compensation last year, Ahmad's solicitor Fiona Murphy submitted a file to the CPS and asked it to examine the evidence again.
so the CPS are only prosecuting the officers 7 years after the event, after the police lost a civil case on the matter, and the victim's solicitor handed a file of evidence to the CPS. The original inquiry obviously having been a whitewash / coverup if it could find nothing wrong enough even to have disciplined anyone.

It's all well and good DB having a go at people for not complaining, but when making a successful complaint can involve many years of hastle, and may well require you to actually launch a civil case against the police before any notice is really taken of your complaint, it's much more understandable that people might think twice about bothering to make a complaint in all but the most extreme of circumstances / unless they're 100% sure they've got cast iron evidence of wrongdoing.

I know people who have made successful complaints in the past, and it's basically sucked the life out of them for years, and served as a major distraction from the original cause they were protesting about. It's not something that should be undertaken lightly IMO, and the benefits of doing so (for campaigners about issues other than police behaviour) should always be weighed up against the risks of the original campaign ending up sidetracked.

From what I can tell, DB's main raison d'etre is the police / security / justice system, so for him a complaint about some aspect of the police's work simply furthers that agenda, whereas for someone who's main focus is the arms trade / environment / AN Other cause, a longwinded complaints procedure against the police is an unwanted distraction from their main cause, and they may well logically (and reluctantly) decide to not pursue it.
 
the other issue d-b (deliberately?) omits to mention, is that if you complain of all the wrongdoing you see the chances are that you'll be marked down as a vexatious complainant and your complaints won't be investigated. i think it's only worth complaining about the things you know you can win, as otherwise you'd be wasting time and possibly money on it.
 
... then what's the point?
To make sure that the true level of inappropriate police behaviour is recorded. So that the statistics reflect the truth. So that when those statistics are published the public, or the agencies created to act on their behalf, can properly address the apparent issues on an organisational level as well as on the individual level.

When you complain about an ignorant shop assistant do you really expect them to be instantly and summarily dismissed? :confused:
 
(a) I’d be spending all my time doing that (unlike those like you some of us have to work you know)
And what the fuck makes you think that I don't have to fucking work? :mad:

I *have* complained about a couple of things recently. First was when the Israelis killed the peace activists on the Gaza ships.
...
The other was to the Catholic church about their priests’ abusing young children in their charge. Did *you* complain about that? If you didn’t then clearly you (and all those like you who try to justify your own idleness in not making formal complaints) are just as much part of the fucking problem as the priests who did the abusing.
No, I didn't. And, in the big scheme of things I am part of the fucking problem that allows States and religious organisations to get away with their shite.

But we have been talking about complaining about things that fate means that we are directly involved in, or at least directly witness, not some fucking news story about something that happened somewhere else ... :rolleyes:

Ah, so for everybody else it’s anything they say on a bulletin board, for you it’s something that you actually witness: another bit of hypocrisy.
No. It's exactly the fucking same. :rolleyes:
 
When you complain about an ignorant shop assistant do you really expect them to be instantly and summarily dismissed? :confused:

You make a good point here. Most police officers are as qualified for their "job" as an average shop assistant, and have similar responsibilities. The jobs are so similar that you could easily swap a shop assistant for a police officer and no-one would any the wiser.
 
How the fuck has it happened then? The fucking prosecution fairy doing it are they? :rolleyes:
"The Crown Prosecution Service received a file of evidence on how those injuries were caused from the Independent Police Complaints Commission in 2004. We took the view at that time that there was insufficient evidence for a realistic prospect of conviction of anyone involved. Following Mr Ahmad's successful civil proceedings for compensation from the police in the High Court last year, his solicitors asked the CPS to look at the evidence again. The Director of Public Prosecutions asked the Special Crime Division to do so. We have now completed our review of the evidence. Our conclusion is that there is sufficient evidence and it is in the public interest to charge four of the officers involved in the arrest of Mr Ahmad with causing actual bodily harm to him"

http://www.cps.gov.uk/news/press_releases/133_10/
 
You make a good point here. Most police officers are as qualified for their "job" as an average shop assistant, and have similar responsibilities. The jobs are so similar that you could easily swap a shop assistant for a police officer and no-one would any the wiser.

Yes, there are the obvious parallels. Being short-changed by a spotty teenager and being attacked from the rear by a baton wielding PC after which you die automatically springs to mind.
 
To make sure that the true level of inappropriate police behaviour is recorded. So that the statistics reflect the truth. So that when those statistics are published the public, or the agencies created to act on their behalf, can properly address the apparent issues on an organisational level as well as on the individual level.
But if the complaints are pretty much being ignored, then they aren't really going to be going towards any sort of figure to record the wrong doings of the police. I would have thought that only cases where action was taken and it was proved that a police officer had done wrong, would count to a figure like that.

And to the best of my knowlege I've never complained about a shop assistant.
 
But we have been talking about complaining about things that fate means that we are directly involved in, or at least directly witness, not some fucking news story about something that happened somewhere else ... :rolleyes:

Err no we weren't actually. The post of mine you quoted was:

Apart from Tomlinson (and of course the photo of the police medic giving nearby demonstrators their treatment), the event that I particularly recall about the G20 protests was the statement from a woman who was part of the good natured crowd of the environmental protest later on in the day - large contingent of women and children. She they were ringed by police and one copper casually said to her with a bit of a smile ‘we’ve got a surprise for you in half an hour’. Thirty minutes later the police waded in with the batons, no provocation. That just reminds me of Germany in the 1930s. The cunt (and not a word I often use) who gave that particular order along with the officers and men who did the baton charge should be out of the force and up before criminal investigations and juries for abh. That's the place for them to plead that they were only obeying orders.

I didn't witness any of that, yet when I said I hadn't complained about it you steamed in with your gratuitous fuckings and shits and rolleyes:

How fucking predictable ... the usual pathetic excuse. :rolleyes:

If you can't be bothered complaining don't come moaning here that everything is shit. You (and all those like you who try to justify your own idleness in not making formal complaints) are just as much part of the fucking problem as the officers who do the wrong thing.

...

So MY complaints are in there, forming part of the stats?

Where the fuck are yours? (Oh yeah, they're missing ... so anyone looking at the stats will think that everything's just peachy ... :rolleyes:)

...

No. It's exactly the fucking same. :rolleyes:

Interesting how much venom a simple criticism of the police force generates in you.
 
You make a good point here. Most police officers are as qualified for their "job" as an average shop assistant, and have similar responsibilities. The jobs are so similar that you could easily swap a shop assistant for a police officer and no-one would any the wiser.

It's true. Last Wednesday I got a crack over the head with a baton for getting too close to the fish counter in Asda.
 
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