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Hundreds of Post Office workers ‘vindicated’ by High Court ruling over faulty Post Office IT system

Another 100 on top of the ones that came forward immediately after the tv programme, I read :)
It's brilliant that they are of course, but so sad they have to. So sad there isn't the will in the Post Office to proactively seek out anyone who may have been affected by this and ensure they're properly treated but then the organisation is behaving like a sulky teenager still.
 
It's brilliant that they are of course, but so sad they have to. So sad there isn't the will in the Post Office to proactively seek out anyone who may have been affected by this and ensure they're properly treated but then the organisation is behaving like a sulky teenager still.
Said on morning telly it's all about damage limitation and protecting the brand. Was trying to recall if this was b4 or after 'Consignia'

Heard another interview with Alan Bates and my old MP. He had 4 cases simultaneously in the constituency...2 of them pretty much villages next to each other...can see why he didn't buy the you're the only one line.

Knighthood for Bates and lashing of perverting of court and perjury charges for the otherside IMO
 
Government about to pass blanket exonerated bill.
Amazing what Quality Docudrama + 'Ideal Victims' + Election Year can do.
"Ideal victims"
Perhaps the one thing I didn't like about the docudrama - in reality, the Post Office picked most on those who were least able to fight. The colour spectrum of the victims sways a lot more brown than the series would have you believe. People whose greater families are thousands of miles away, people with poor English, etc.

ETA: I don't mean to insinuate the Post Office was being racist, more that they knew how to pick out the vulnerable.
 
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Can we move on?

Only when Vennells and a few others have been garoted.

If there is a positive from this it shows how some of the petit-bourgeois can be a bolshy effective bunch. You love to see! It'd be great to see this cohort collectively radicalised. It could go far... "Mister Bates v Establishment shitcunts" has a ring to it. Toby Jones could be busy for a while.
 
Only when Vennells and a few others have been garoted.

If there is a positive from this it shows how some of the petit-bourgeois can be a bolshy effective bunch. You love to see! It'd be great to see this cohort collectively radicalised. It could go far... "Mister Bates v Establishment shitcunts" has a ring to it.

Expecting your current username to be banned, then?
 
No IT system (or machine or device) is 100% error free. There are always bugs. But these were covered up and the users carried the can. What galls me in these sort of cases is that the business drags the sufferer to the court steps and then (sometimes) pays them off without admitting liability.

I don think anyone expects perfection. But its the deny-deny-deny attitude that hurts.
Bang on. As a former IT professional, it's pretty much a given that a system is not going to work in the way it is supposed to work, especially using the old "cascade" style models for specification and development.

Much of this is down to "technical" factors, but human factors play a huge part - in too many development environments, it ends up with the dev team "marking its own homework", which never provides much of an incentive to dig really deep and try to smash the system, with the result that often-trivial mistakes get made which can have profound consequences, either in terms of the errors they produce, or in the effort required to fix them, particularly if they have sneaked through to production.

What seems to have happened here is that Fujitsu did identify bugs, but the relationship between them and their client (POL) was such that, either deliberately or by accident, a collusive relationship developed between them whereby POL then controlled the activity around reporting errors. That's 100% a human problem, not a technical one. In a nutshell, POL chose to lie (mostly by concealment, but also from the sound of it, actively) about the problems with the system.

As I was easing out of IT, there was the beginning of a move towards stuff like test-driven development, where before you even start writing code, you write a battery of tests designed to validate the way the system works, and then each iteration of the development cycle is submitted to the test regime, and the resultant outputs compared to the anticipated results. Even this isn't 100% bullet proof, and it helps a lot if those designing the tests are not the same people who are writing the code. Nowadays, those test environments can be automated, so as to enable the development cycle to incorporate a "test early, test often" approach, which can be carried forward to production systems, to provide an ongoing test regime that can be used to validate installed systems, as well as any late changes, updates, revisions, or further development of the system. It doesn't sound as if this happened - indeed, from the description of the Fujitsu test regime, it seemed to be heavily reliant on error reports from the end-users of the system (you know, the ones who ended up going to prison :hmm:).

So, to cut a long story short, there was something rotten about the whole philosophy of this system's conception and design. It was doomed to fail. As so many large IT projects are - the difference with this one is the brazenness of the client (POL) in simply refusing to acknowledge the possibility of system failure. Personally, I do think that this refusal verges on the criminal, but it is at least reckless.

Whatever penalties and price that those responsible end up paying (and I'd bet quite heavily that those who were most responsible will get away with it scot-free), the way systems like these are developed needs to be radically reviewed - almost, I think, to the point where systems where it is even remotely conceivable that a system failure will result in the kind of harm done to its users should require the testing and development to take place under some kind of legally binding regime, with appropriate oversight.

And outfits like POL shouldn't ever be allowed to bring private prosecutions on the basis of evidence yielded by such systems. You can't legislate for the fact that people and organisations will be less likely to self-report, but you can at least make sure that such a lack of suitable testing and disclosure renders any evidence such a system produces inadmissible for use in prosecutions.
 
"Ideal victims"
Perhaps the one thing I didn't like about the docudrama - in reality, the Post Office picked most on those who were least able to fight. The colour spectrum of the victims sways a lot more brown than the series would have you believe. People whose greater families are thousands of miles away, people with poor English, etc.

ETA: I don't mean to insinuate the Post Office was being racist, more that they knew how to pick out the vulnerable.
Again, from the BBC Sounds thing, the PO had a classification system that described postmasters in explicitly racist terms. I'll try and dig it out.

By the by, when I say 'ideal victims' I'm thinking of the way they've been portrayed in the ITV drama, middle aged, 'never been in trouble with the police' etc. Its the very thing sunak has finally latched onto, for entirely cynical reasons. Doesn't mean it helped them while they were being prosecuted and bankrupted.
 
How is Fujitsu to be punished? The Cabinet Office had a fight with them in the 2010s and tried to get them precluded from bids; they managed perfectly well through existing frameworks and contract variations.


Fujitsu. Name rang a bell. The Sheriffs are Coming, 2013 (forerunner to can't pay we'll take it away):

Fujitsu staff “shaken”

Which is where Fujistu Services comes in. A unnamed company had been to court and been awarded £149, 481.93 against Fujitsu. As Fujitsu hadn’t paid, the company asked the High Court to collect payment – and enforcement officer Lawrence Grix went with a colleague Kevin McNally to Fujitsu’s Stevenage’s offices to collect the money.

That the sheriffs were dealing with one of world’s biggest IT services companies in Europe, Middle East and Africa, which employs 14,500 people in more than 20 countries, did not faze them.

The sheriffs in a black Ford Transit van pull up at the manned security barrier at Fujitsu Stevenage where the supplier has had a presence for 43 years.

The unexpected visit leaves Fujitsu staff “shaken” according to the broadcast.

At first Fujitsu’s security staff refuse admission to the sheriffs’ van.

Sheriff: “You can’t actually stop me.”

Fujitsu: “I can stop you.”

Sheriff: “You can’t.”

Police?

Some time later, and still without access to Fujitsu Services Stevenage, Grix warns Fujitsu that he can call the police. He tells a Fujitsu security guard:

“To be honest I don’t think we have been treated particularly professionally or courteously so far. We have done the utmost to be professional and respectful to your situation here.”

“Ok,” says a guard at the security barrier. It appears that the guard has just come on duty and is unaware that the sheriffs have been trying to gain access for some time.

The sheriff continues: “We not looking to come storming round the place and see your latest technology. That’s not what we are here for. We are here to execute a high court writ and we are asking to be treated in a courteous manner.

“We have the right to enter. If you are not going to allow me to enter I am just going to park my vehicle here (at the entrance barrier) and go in on foot and if anybody tries to stop me I will call the police because it is an arrestable offence to obstruct an enforcement officer in the execution of a writ.

“We don’t want to go down that road. We just want to be treated with some courtesy.”

Eventually the sheriffs gain access – but still don’t get payment and so they seize on paper sufficient Fujitsu goods to cover the debt. The sheriff listed property he could remove later if the debt remained unpaid. The programme’s narrator David Reed told viewers that the sheriffs now owned just about everything at Fujitsu’s head office.
 
"Ideal victims"
Perhaps the one thing I didn't like about the docudrama - in reality, the Post Office picked most on those who were least able to fight. The colour spectrum of the victims sways a lot more brown than the series would have you believe. People whose greater families are thousands of miles away, people with poor English, etc.

ETA: I don't mean to insinuate the Post Office was being racist, more that they knew how to pick out the vulnerable.
This
 
It's been a bit weird how the BBC coverage (at least) never mentions the suicides - it's always just about the hundreds wrongfully accused/convicted/appealed.

They do mention the suicides, they have come up a few times, including during that hour long BBC Breakfast segment this morning.

Much like people commenting on the lack of coverage before ITV's drama, just because people haven't seen, or can't remember it, doesn't mean it wasn't covered.

I certainly remember plenty of coverage at various stages, including Panorama featuring it, e.g.

2015 -



2020 -

 
They do mention the suicides, they have come up a few times, including during that hour long BBC Breakfast segment this morning.
I only tend to watch the headlines, and it never gets a mention as part of those. As baldrick says though, maybe it's because they couldn't adequately tick all the boxes they needed to when talking about it so chose to leave it out.
 
I know they're a bit Marmite, but the Marsh Family just dropped this.

I like the first line where they make an equivalence between the PPE thing and the Post Office thing.


I really want to like this family's musical/satirical output, but....sorry...just, no.
 
Fujitsu. Name rang a bell. The Sheriffs are Coming, 2013 (forerunner to can't pay we'll take it away):

Fujitsu staff “shaken”

Which is where Fujistu Services comes in. A unnamed company had been to court and been awarded £149, 481.93 against Fujitsu. As Fujitsu hadn’t paid, the company asked the High Court to collect payment – and enforcement officer Lawrence Grix went with a colleague Kevin McNally to Fujitsu’s Stevenage’s offices to collect the money.

That the sheriffs were dealing with one of world’s biggest IT services companies in Europe, Middle East and Africa, which employs 14,500 people in more than 20 countries, did not faze them.

The sheriffs in a black Ford Transit van pull up at the manned security barrier at Fujitsu Stevenage where the supplier has had a presence for 43 years.

The unexpected visit leaves Fujitsu staff “shaken” according to the broadcast.

At first Fujitsu’s security staff refuse admission to the sheriffs’ van.

Sheriff: “You can’t actually stop me.”

Fujitsu: “I can stop you.”

Sheriff: “You can’t.”

Police?

Some time later, and still without access to Fujitsu Services Stevenage, Grix warns Fujitsu that he can call the police. He tells a Fujitsu security guard:

“To be honest I don’t think we have been treated particularly professionally or courteously so far. We have done the utmost to be professional and respectful to your situation here.”

“Ok,” says a guard at the security barrier. It appears that the guard has just come on duty and is unaware that the sheriffs have been trying to gain access for some time.

The sheriff continues: “We not looking to come storming round the place and see your latest technology. That’s not what we are here for. We are here to execute a high court writ and we are asking to be treated in a courteous manner.

“We have the right to enter. If you are not going to allow me to enter I am just going to park my vehicle here (at the entrance barrier) and go in on foot and if anybody tries to stop me I will call the police because it is an arrestable offence to obstruct an enforcement officer in the execution of a writ.

“We don’t want to go down that road. We just want to be treated with some courtesy.”

Eventually the sheriffs gain access – but still don’t get payment and so they seize on paper sufficient Fujitsu goods to cover the debt. The sheriff listed property he could remove later if the debt remained unpaid. The programme’s narrator David Reed told viewers that the sheriffs now owned just about everything at Fujitsu’s head office.
It's not often that bailiffs come out as the good guys.
 
I think coverage of suicide is something that is quite heavily moderated/monitored in the news and left as subtext in a lot of cases.
There are guidelines, and arguably rightly so. Those don't extend to not reporting suicide at all - and I think that, particularly in situations like this, the fact that victims of this appalling travesty killed themselves should be headline material. What the guidelines ask for is that suicide isn't glorified, treated pruriently, and that the means of doing so are not explored in excessive detail.

But I am not surprised that, for various reasons, few of them good, media sources may have decided to soft-pedal on the fact that one of the consequences of this disgusting episode is that people have lost their lives, in the most tragic and traumatic way possible. It should be possible for POL to be prosecuted for some version of corporate manslaughter, but I don't see that happening.
 
That TV show really does have some mind boggling stuff. 300,000 spent on lawyers to claim back a shortfall of 25,000. Why would they do that if the result, and the repayment of their costs, weren't a foregone conclusion?

Some people really need to die in prison for this shit.
 
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sharmer and the Ed blokes defence is the standard and usual you rather assume the Post Office aren't a bunch of lying shitweasals.
much like nobody suspected Dr Chapman of being a serial killer.
We assume people in power are basically honest and if your a minister you have to rely on the fact the people reporting to you are telling the truth.
your kind of screwed if supposedly respectable establishment figures lie repeat idly to your face.
 
The investigators got a cash bonus for everyone convicted, these bonuses have not been repaid.

When asked why, he wrote back: 'Because I want to prove that there is FFFFiiinnn no "Case for the Justice of Thieving Subpostmasters" and that we were the best Investigators they ever had and they were all crooks!!'
He admitted during giving evidence his words were 'absolutely disgraceful' and he was 'embarrassed' for inferring that everyone was guilty.

Not embarrassed enough to hand back the cash.
 
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