HS2 high-speed London-Birmingham route rail project - discussion

[teuchter]

Some people have no choice but to pay what's charged. Transport is not an optional luxury item.

What's this got to do with HS2 though?

UK rail ticket prices aren't actually as high (compared to other European countries) as people think. Nonetheless - the UK's high prices for peak time travel are the result of a government that hasn't wanted to subsidise them any more than it can get away with, and a lack of system capacity.

It's an odd response to that situation, to say we shouldn't be spending public money on a big project to increase capacity in the rail system.

 

[teuchter]

Vueling primarily flies leisure routes, these trains are operating the same routes as each other.

They aren't the same; the Ouigo trains are higher capacity (ie less comfortable) than regular TGVs and they also operate between secondary stations in the major cities, rather than the most convenient ones, that the regular TGVs use.

They are a direct response to competition from low cost airlines (and deregulated intercity buses). They are subject to that competition on lots of journeys that are >2.5hrs.

 

[Teaboy]

I'm just pricing up some elements of the Colne Valley Viaduct. I don't know how I didn't know about this before now. Its a 4.5km viaduct! The more I see of this project the easier it is to see why the price tag is what it is.

 

[stolinski]

I'm just pricing up some elements of the Colne Valley Viaduct. I don't know how I didn't know about this before now. Its a 4.5km viaduct! The more I see of this project the easier it is to see why the price tag is what it is.

reports i've seen say 2.1 miles (3.4 km) long

 

[Crispy]

There's barely any of the route that isn't tunnel, cutting, embankment or viaduct.

 

[teuchter]

There's barely any of the route that isn't tunnel, cutting, embankment or viaduct.

Being a little pedantic... this is the case for virtually any railway line.

 

[stolinski]

‘They’ll have to carry me out’ – HS2 protesters refuse to leave Roald Dahl wood in Buckinghamshire

 

[alex_]

‘They’ll have to carry me out’ – HS2 protesters refuse to leave Roald Dahl wood in Buckinghamshire

ah yes - greens against green transport

 

[Teaboy]

‘They’ll have to carry me out’ – HS2 protesters refuse to leave Roald Dahl wood in Buckinghamshire

Mr Masters, who was an RAF aircraft engineer for 20 years, said: “It (HS2) is an engineering project that’s not needed, it’s not going to be carbon neutral for 120 plus years.

He might be right but, still.

 

[angusmcfangus]

Protesters at the Denham /tunnel entrance site this morning.
All construction traffic not able to access the site.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Well impressed with that wood/rope structure. A clear development and improvement on the scaf pole tripods we used to use

 

[SpookyFrank]

Well impressed with that wood/rope structure. A clear development and improvement on the scaf pole tripods we used to use

Init. I always thought the double-decker tripod was a myth tbh. Even looking at it I can't figure out how they did it.

 

[BigTom]

I reckon it's one of these: Needle Tower
Tensegrity is the general name
Crazy stuff where the weight of the beams pulls the ropes taught, which holds other beams up, which have ropes on them which hold the original beams up. Or something. There are some simpler tensegrity structures which you can make sense of but I'm baffled by that one.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

I reckon it's one of these: Needle Tower
Tensegrity is the general name
Crazy stuff where the weight of the beams pulls the ropes taught, which holds other beams up, which have ropes on them which hold the original beams up. Or something. There are some simpler tensegrity structures which you can make sense of but I'm baffled by that one.

 

[BigTom]

Yeah, that's the thing - the top section can't fall because the bottom of the top section can't move further down because of the chain there, and it can't fall left to right because of the chains on the side, so it just kind of floats there. Bizarre but true.

 

[SpookyFrank]

ah yes - greens against green transport

So green that they're (checks notes) destroying ancient woodland and protected species' habitats to build it

Also anything that fuels the continuing expansion of London at the expense of properly planned, sustainable development elsewhere can't really be described as green IMO.

 

[alex_]

So green that they're (checks notes) destroying ancient woodland and protected species' habitats to build it

Also anything that fuels the continuing expansion of London at the expense of properly planned, sustainable development elsewhere can't really be described as green IMO.

they are affecting directly 33 ancient woodlands source - woodland trust, of which the uk has 760,000 acres.

Transport goes through the countryside, and checks notes don’t think global warming will do much for our ancient woodlands either.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Transport goes through the countryside, and checks notes don’t think global warming will do much for our ancient woodlands either.

Global warming or HS2, those are the only options. For some reason.

My main argument against HS2 is that for the resources involved it will make little difference to climate change. By the time it's up and running (which is what now, 2040?) it'll be too late to make any kind of difference to climate change anyway.

As for woodlands, it's not just a matter of the amount of land destroyed but the fact that it will chop many habitats in two. That's always bad for diversity, particularly for any species that needs a continuous range of territory to exist in.

 

[teuchter]

I wish an equal level of energy could be directed at the road building programme. Because it's more dispersed and not easily identifiable as a named project, it's not as attractive a target for protesters.

 

[cybershot]

So has phase 2b been scraped or just delayed?

 

[SpookyFrank]

So has phase 2b been scraped or just delayed?

Considering the timescale for just London to Birmingham, there's no meaningful difference between delayed and scrapped. And nobody will need to be connected to London anyway because London will be in the sea by then.

 

[Crispy]

delayed while the Integrated Transport Report is done. In order to link up with HS3/NPR or whatever it's called this year, they may want to change the design.

 

[alex_]

I wish an equal level of energy could be directed at the road building programme. Because it's more dispersed and not easily identifiable as a named project, it's not as attractive a target for protesters.

that never goes though, checks notes ancient woodlands or fluffy animal places, plus cars are good for the environment

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Construction has been officially going for just over a month and so it’s time for a trifling £800,000,000 additional costs to be added...

Cost of HS2 high-speed rail line rises by £800m

Work on Euston station and asbestos removal add to bill for London to Birmingham phase

www.theguardian.com

Perhaps even a quarter of a trillion pounds will turn out to be an under-estimate once this thing is done...

 

[Teaboy]

Lord knows how some asbestos costs £800 million to remove. You could build a sky scraper for that. They must have got Serco on the case.

 

[BigTom]

The reshaping of Euston station is likely to cost at least £400m more than planned, while the discovery of more asbestos than expected in demolitions along the line of the route has added around another £400m.

£400m for asbestos removal, the rest is overruns on Euston station.
And there's no detail about how many properties / extra asbestos there is so who knows how padded out that deal is.

also

However, Stephenson said that the spiralling budget for Euston and the preparatory works would be accounted for within the £5.3bn contingency that had been delegated for HS2 Ltd, keeping the first phase of works, from London to Birmingham, within an overall £44.6bn budget.

so technically not increasing the overall cost apparently.

 

[Teaboy]

£400m for asbestos removal is a bonkers amount of money there must be f-ing tons of the stuff.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

£400m for asbestos removal is a bonkers amount of money there must be f-ing tons of the stuff.

Probably at least £100k's worth, but that shit doesn't get removed without consultants being consulted first, so yeah, £400m sounds about on the money for HS2.

 

[teuchter]

I'm mean if there's one area where you really don't need "experts" getting involved and slowing things down - it's asbestos removal.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I'm mean if there's one area where you really don't need "experts" getting involved and slowing things down - it's asbestos removal.

Rip it out and luzz it over Hadrian's Wall, job done.