HS2 high-speed London-Birmingham route rail project - discussion

[BigTom]

You'd have thunk someone had already looked at all this before deciding to go ahead with HS2 wouldn't you?

Well, that would require "joined up thinking"!
I would think that those arguments are had at DfT though yeah, but at the same time HS2 is the answer to "the WCML is massively over capacity, how do we resolve that issue?" and not really played off against doing X, Y and Z instead.
But for all I know the cost benefit analyses have been done and HS2 gives the best overall outcomes.

 

[redsquirrel]

I don’t understand the “they will make it too expensive to use argument”, they are going to need it to be full to make any money from it !

Who is 'they'?
The state subsidising, or more accurately transferring wealth to, capital is not new, FFS it's exactly what happened during the GFC, it is what is happening currently.

 

[alex_]

Who is 'they'?
The state subsidising, or more accurately transferring wealth to, capital is not new, FFS it's exactly what happened during the GFC, it is what is happening currently.

whoever sets ticket prices !

 

[teuchter]

Whatever pricing strategy gets applied to HS2 will be the same that gets applied to the rest of the network. Depending on the government of the time, there might be a policy of setting prices for rail travel low, with increased subsidy and strong regulation, or there might be a policy of getting travellers to pay as high a proportion as possible, and allowing market forces to determine pricing. In the latter scenario, there'll be a tendency for the fastest trains at the busiest times to be expensive, whether those trains run on HS2 or not.

It's not really relevant to an argument for or against HS2.

 

[SpookyFrank]

And then we can decide if we're just giving ground here by making it an either/or question. We should have HS2 and investment elsewhere, not one or the other.

Yeah after this quarter-trillion pound project gets finished in the middle of the worst recession in a century there's gonna be bare cash left over for everything else.

 

[BigTom]

Yeah after this quarter-trillion pound project gets finished in the middle of the worst recession in a century there's gonna be bare cash left over for everything else.

Like I said, we have to decide if we're just giving ground by accepting that. Middle of the worst recession ever? We should be spending fuck loads on infrastructure investment to stimulate the economy. Now I know that keynesian ideas of economic management are not in vogue at the moment but do you really want to argue that we shouldn't be spending more money? That £250bn is the total amount of money we have to spend on transport infrastructure over the next 20 years?

Plus lets say HS2 is cancelled cos of the cost. Do you think £250bn (or the £100bn it's supposedly going to cost now) is going to be re-allocated to other transport projects, or do you think it'll just be cut and no other projects picked up? Cos I know what I think will happen unless we won the argument for infrastructure spending in general, and if you win that argument then you are in a good place to argue for HS2 AND other projects, not HS2 or other projects.

edit: HS2 is planned to be completed in 2040. Who knows what state the economy will be in at that time!

 

[redsquirrel]

whoever sets ticket prices !

Which is who? How do you think this type of project is built by the state and capital.

Whatever pricing strategy gets applied to HS2 will be the same that gets applied to the rest of the network.
....
It's not really relevant to an argument for or against HS2.

It's relevant to what H2S will be. How H2S, and public transport and other large schemes are built for neoliberalism.

I'm in favour of a high speed railway system for workers, I'm going to oppose attempts by the state and capital to use projects to enrich themselves. Where H2S supports the former I'm in favour of it, but that should not build one to how capital are essentially getting workers to pay for something for their benefit.

 

[teuchter]

Which is who? How do you think this type of project is built by the state and capital.

It's relevant to what H2S will be. How H2S, and public transport and other large schemes are built for neoliberalism.

I'm in favour of a high speed railway system for workers, I'm going to oppose attempts by the state and capital to use projects to enrich themselves. Where H2S supports the former I'm in favour of it, but that should not build one to how capital are essentially getting workers to pay for something for their benefit.

Sounds like there's basically no new infrastructure projects you'd be able to support in the foreseeable future, then.

 

[redsquirrel]

Are you even reading what people are posting, or just doing your usual crap.

 

[Winot]

We should be spending fuck loads on infrastructure investment to stimulate the economy. Now I know that keynesian ideas of economic management are not in vogue at the moment but do you really want to argue that we shouldn't be spending more money?

Actually this is (surprisingly) an extraordinarily Keynesian government and in DfT in particular there is a great desire to spend huge amounts on large infra. Unfortunately most of it (HS2 aside) on road building schemes.

 

[teuchter]

Are you even reading what people are posting, or just doing your usual crap.

If you could try to describe what your the version of HS2 that you would support would look like, how it would work, be funded, operated, and so on, then there would be a bit more to respond to.

 

[alex_]

Are you even reading what people are posting, or just doing your usual crap.

what is a high speed rail system for workers ?

 

[alex_]

Which is who? How do you think this type of project is built by the state and capital.

I’m not sure how it is relavent.

I said - I don’t understand the “they’ll set the ticket prices too high” argument.

you’ve asked twice who they is.

it isn’t relevant - unless if group a sent prices too high it is bad, but good if group b set prices too high.

I’m sure you will enlighten us though

Alex

 

[stolinski]

I don’t understand the “they will make it too expensive to use argument”, they are going to need it to be full to make any money from it !

well there's lots to say on that .. TGV (French HS) is very expensive since they aim to get the business travellers, HS2 seems to be planned the same way.

if it's cheaper to drive lots of people will continue to do that and why wouldn't they?

plus remember the business model was predicated on 18 trains an hour, which is insane and even oakervee admits is probably impossible

 

[teuchter]

The TGV is not very expensive. That's nonsense.

 

[alex_]

The TGV is not very expensive. That's nonsense.

yes, for example Ouigo - Wikipedia

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

yes, for example Ouigo - Wikipedia

A subsidiary of state owned SNCF. What’s the fucking point?? Just have reasonable fares across the network.

 

[teuchter]

A subsidiary of state owned SNCF. What’s the fucking point?? Just have reasonable fares across the network.

Regulate the airways they have to compete with, then.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Regulate the airways they have to compete with, then.

Ehrm, that already happens, if the train journey is less than two and a half hours no airline is allowed to operate the route.

 

[alex_]

A subsidiary of state owned SNCF. What’s the fucking point?? Just have reasonable fares across the network.

very French

 

[T & P]

A subsidiary of state owned SNCF. What’s the fucking point?? Just have reasonable fares across the network.

Spain has gone just the same way, and have launched this year AVLO, a low-cost subsidiary owned by RENFE. Uses hte same rolling stock and travels at the same speeds, but IIRC might terminate at a secondary station in Barcelona rather than going to Sants, the main station. It might also make a few additional stops along the way.

AVLO - Cargando

PAGINAS OFICIALES DE RENFE, HORARIOS, COMPRA, VENTA, BILLETES,

avlorenfe.com

 

[alex_]

Spain has gone just the same way, and have launched this year AVLO, a low-cost subsidiary owned by RENFE. Uses hte same rolling stock and travels at the same speeds, but IIRC might terminate at a secondary station in Barcelona rather than going to Sants, the main station. It might also make a few additional stops along the way.

AVLO - Cargando

PAGINAS OFICIALES DE RENFE, HORARIOS, COMPRA, VENTA, BILLETES,

avlorenfe.com

Its the same as ba owning vueling, getting a slice the budget market w/o Cannibalising it’s business market.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Its the same as ba owning vueling, getting a slice the budget market w/o Cannibalising it’s business market.

Vueling primarily flies leisure routes, these trains are operating the same routes as each other.

 

[alex_]

Vueling primarily flies leisure routes, these trains are operating the same routes as each other.

That’s because the tgv doesn’t go to mykonos

 

[Badgers]

 

[SpookyFrank]

[/QUOTE]

I said - I don’t understand the “they’ll set the ticket prices too high” argument.

Have a quick wee glance at current UK train ticket prices compared to the rest of Europe or indeed anywhere else on the planet, then let us know if you're still struggling with the concept.

 

[alex_]

Have a quick wee glance at current UK train ticket prices compared to the rest of Europe or indeed anywhere else on the planet, then let us know if you're still struggling with the concept.

and until Covid - look at UK rail year on year passenger growth - none stop growth from 2000 to 2020

alex

 

[SpookyFrank]

.

 

[SpookyFrank]

?

 

[SpookyFrank]

and until Covid - look at UK rail year on year passenger growth - none stop growth from 2000 to 2020

alex

Some people have no choice but to pay what's charged. Transport is not an optional luxury item.