Housing Association residents/tenants/leaseholders - ever opted out of the HA’s gardening or cleaning services and done it yourselves?

[scalyboy]

I live in a housing association estate, communal garden and exterior cleaning is meant to be done by a company the HA outsourced to do the job, but they are fairly useless and when we look at what we’re paying as a component of the service charge

A group of us (there’s 30 flats) have been talking about opting out, we do our own exterior cleaning, litter picking etc anyway. And if we couldn’t do all the gardening ourselves we cd hire some local gardening company that we reckon would be much cheaper.

Question: has anyone in a similar position ever managed to do this? I’ve heard it’s legally possible but whether it requires unanimous or a majority agreement by all of us I don’t know. Another potential complication: some of us are tenants sub-letting from a leaseholder who previously lived here; some are shared ownership residents (part ownership part tenant paying a proportion of rent); some are tenants via social housing; some own their flats outright having bought / mortgaged the whole share.
AFAIK leasehold not freehold.

Any suggestions / personal experiences gratefully received!
I’m seeing a housing advice charity next week, but that’s primarily about my dad and whether the council (he’s a tenant) can force him out now our mum has died and in theory there is now “one bedroom too many”

And also, whose responsibility is it to repair the decrepit fence in his garden (his mobility & cognitive impairments now mean he’s unable to maintain the garden as he did before). I recall from years back it being the council’s duty to keep the fence in a good condition, but they’ve recently told me it’s nothing to do with them
guv

(Had a quick search of this housing forum and couldn’t immediately see any similar threads, so
am starting this one, apols if I missed an extant thread)

 

[kalmatthew]

I looked into right to manage (which I think is what you want) lots of info form the leasehold advisory service. We struggled because we couldn't get the number of people we needed to kick the managing agent out as so many properties were rented with landlords that just wanted the simplest option.

 

[scalyboy]

I looked into right to manage (which I think is what you want) lots of info form the leasehold advisory service. We struggled because we couldn't get the number of people we needed to kick the managing agent out as so many properties were rented with landlords that just wanted the simplest option.

Nice one, the leasehold advisory service site looks like it will give us some clues. Yes, I reckon ‘right to manage’ is what we’re after. Thanks again
I love Urban

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Question: has anyone in a similar position ever managed to do this? I’ve heard it’s legally possible but whether it requires unanimous or a majority agreement by all of us I don’t know. Another potential complication: some of us are tenants sub-letting from a leaseholder who previously lived here; some are shared ownership residents (part ownership part tenant paying a proportion of rent); some are tenants via social housing; some own their flats outright having bought / mortgaged the whole share.
AFAIK leasehold not freehold

hmm

'right to manage' might be difficult - think you need to get a majority of leaseholders, so would probably be the leaseholders who are landlords, not their private tenants. who actually live there. and if some of the flats are still council / HA, then that might make chances of getting a majority that bit more difficult.

although the block i'm in (think i'm the only one of 4 who's leasehold rather than a council tenant) one of the neighbours has agreed to lease a chunk of the previously communal garden and look after it now, instead of council sending a bloody great tractor based lawnmower round a few times a year to churn up the lawn and spray grass cuttings all over the place. so something like that might just be possible.

fairly sure the 'own outright' / mortgage occupiers would be leasehold - don't think you can own freehold on a flat in england. it's different in scotland.

I’m seeing a housing advice charity next week, but that’s primarily about my dad and whether the council (he’s a tenant) can force him out now our mum has died and in theory there is now “one bedroom too many”

don't think they can force someone out after a partner has died - although was dad on the tenancy agreement? it can get difficult if someone wasn't (e.g. adult child of tenant still living at home / partner who was never on the tenancy agreement) after tenant dies.

there may be an issue over 'bedroom tax' if dad claims housing benefit - although i have an idea that this didn't apply to people of pension age (if he is) but i'm increasingly out of touch with it all.

some councils / HAs have schemes to encourage older tenants to move out of bigger places that they no longer need in to a smaller place, either locally or elsewhere, to free the place up for tenants (usually with kids) who need somewhere bigger. some will offer things like paying / helping with costs of moving / decorating to do this. but not at all sure they can compel an existing tenant to move.

there are others on here who are more involved with housing management, so one of them may come along sooner or later.

And also, whose responsibility is it to repair the decrepit fence in his garden (his mobility & cognitive impairments now mean he’s unable to maintain the garden as he did before). I recall from years back it being the council’s duty to keep the fence in a good condition, but they’ve recently told me it’s nothing to do with them
guv

fences are complicated (fence here on the boundary of what's nominally my bit of garden fell down some months ago and council are still thinking about whose problem it is to replace it - i'm willing to, but don't want to do it and then have it taken down because it doesn't meet some standard i'm not aware of or whatever) - may depend on the 'small print' in the tenancy agreement.

there may also be some local voluntary scheme for helping older people with gardens - aware of a goodgym scheme in lewisham, for example. (i don't know where you are, this is something i know of through local connections.)

and at the risk of stating the obvious, age uk (used to be age concern) are fairly good on benefits, practical help and all sorts for older people - and their friends / family / carers.

you mentioned dad's mobility impairments - has he / you looked in to claiming attendance allowance for example?

 

[scalyboy]

hmm

'right to manage' might be difficult - think you need to get a majority of leaseholders, so would probably be the leaseholders who are landlords, not their private tenants. who actually live there. and if some of the flats are still council / HA, then that might make chances of getting a majority that bit more difficult.

although the block i'm in (think i'm the only one of 4 who's leasehold rather than a council tenant) one of the neighbours has agreed to lease a chunk of the previously communal garden and look after it now, instead of council sending a bloody great tractor based lawnmower round a few times a year to churn up the lawn and spray grass cuttings all over the place. so something like that might just be possible.

fairly sure the 'own outright' / mortgage occupiers would be leasehold - don't think you can own freehold on a flat in england. it's different in scotland.



don't think they can force someone out after a partner has died - although was dad on the tenancy agreement? it can get difficult if someone wasn't (e.g. adult child of tenant still living at home / partner who was never on the tenancy agreement) after tenant dies.

there may be an issue over 'bedroom tax' if dad claims housing benefit - although i have an idea that this didn't apply to people of pension age (if he is) but i'm increasingly out of touch with it all.

some councils / HAs have schemes to encourage older tenants to move out of bigger places that they no longer need in to a smaller place, either locally or elsewhere, to free the place up for tenants (usually with kids) who need somewhere bigger. some will offer things like paying / helping with costs of moving / decorating to do this. but not at all sure they can compel an existing tenant to move.

there are others on here who are more involved with housing management, so one of them may come along sooner or later.



fences are complicated (fence here on the boundary of what's nominally my bit of garden fell down some months ago and council are still thinking about whose problem it is to replace it - i'm willing to, but don't want to do it and then have it taken down because it doesn't meet some standard i'm not aware of or whatever) - may depend on the 'small print' in the tenancy agreement.

there may also be some local voluntary scheme for helping older people with gardens - aware of a goodgym scheme in lewisham, for example. (i don't know where you are, this is something i know of through local connections.)

and at the risk of stating the obvious, age uk (used to be age concern) are fairly good on benefits, practical help and all sorts for older people - and their friends / family / carers.

you mentioned dad's mobility impairments - has he / you looked in to claiming attendance allowance for example?

Thanks mate - all sound advice

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

Look on the Leasehold Advisory Service website about Right to Manage, but iirc, I think at least 50 per cent of the properties have to be leasehold, and then of those I think two-thirds have to vote in favour of right to manage, which might be tricky, especially if you have absentee landlords who would probably rather leave things in charge of the freeholder, anything for an easier life, iyswim, and to them it's a business expense that they cover with rental income, it's not impacting on their personal bills/disposable income, so they arguably won't care as much.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

Re your dad's tenancy. Generally speaking, there's usually a 'right to succession' in older tenancies, and this could/would kick in when a tenancy changes from joint tenancy to a single tenancy on the death of a spouse.

Lots of people misunderstand/are unaware about the change from joint to single tenancy counting as one succession of the tenancy. You sometimes get adult children trying to succeed the tenancy after the death of the second parent, only to find out it's not possible as there can only be one succession and that was already used up by the first death of a parent.

Try Googling the name of the housing association and terms like rights of succession or right to succeed tenancy, or they might email you/your dad a copy of their policy.

And the other complication that catches many people unawares is that the right to succession, the right to succeed the tenancy, doesn't necessarily include the right to stay in the same property.

It basically amounts to the housing association having an obligation to (re-)house the tenant.

So, yes, the housing association might insist on downsizing him to a smaller property with fewer bedrooms, unless he has a carer who stays overnight?

While I know it must be an awful wrench for your father, to lose a long-term home after losing a spouse, having to move from that life and leave the memories behind seems unnecessarily cruel, you've mentioned that your dad is struggling with maintenance and repair jobs/gardening, so maybe he might be better off somewhere more manageable, like sheltered/supported housing?

Generally speaking, tenants are generally responsible for looking after their garden and can often be responsible for maintaining/repairing and replacing fences and gates, although a neighbour might be responsible on one side. Check with the housing association which fence(s) your dad is responsible for.

Some local councils have a care and repair service, or it might have been spun-off and might now be an independent organisation, but there might be an organisation that helps elderly and/or disabled people with gardening and odd-jobs around the home, changing lightbulbs, putting up shelves, DIY type stuff. They might also be able to process grant applications for adaptations, like grab rails, ramps, wet rooms, etc

 

[marty21]

If your dad is a joint tenant, then they should just transfer to a sole tenancy. The size of the flat is irrelevant, but they will want him to downsize as his 2 bed flat could be used by someone who needs a 2 bed flat. I have worked for several Housing Associations, and currently for a Local Authority. We encourage downsizing by giving financial incentives (it's about £1500 per bedroom downsized).

If your dad is on Housing Benefit or UC Rent Element (the new HB) he won't receive the full rate if he has a spare bedroom , the bedroom tax still exists , it's about £16 a week (haven't looked up the weekly rate).

On the service charge issue , yep I think the residents can go alone , whether it's cheaper is another issue. The residents can get together & voluntarily do the communal gardening & cleaning , and maybe they do it better & cheaper. Eventually, tenants move on , new tenants may not be that arsed about helping out , or paying towards the costs & a dwindling number of residents do it all and probably get resentful that others aren't pulling their weight or paying towards the costs. Maybe that won't happen , but I've seen many communal gardens being neglected over the years.

Apologies for the pessimism, 30 years of working in Social Housing .