Holocaust: the facts

[Cid]

Yep, had a meeting with the head today & discussed your (and my/our obvs) concerns.

From HET:

"This is not to say that the primary classroom is a suitable environment for the study of every aspect of the history of the Holocaust. As this guide makes clear, the Trust does not believe that wartime persecution and murder are appropriate topics for this level. Rather, learning about issues such as pre-war Jewish life and culture, persecution before the Second World War, emigration, and rescue introduces students to themes which are important in their own right and which have significant contemporary relevance."

"It should be evident that both the emotional impact and intellectual complexity of learning about the Holocaust dictate that great care is necessary when selecting suitable content for primary school students. The Trust very strongly believes that it is not appropriate for them to directly study the murder of Europe’s Jews during the Second World War. In particular, the horrifying history of the Nazi extermination camps and other mass killing operations should be avoided."

"It is entirely understandable that some students may find aspects of study related to the history of the Holocaust upsetting. Lessons engaging with issues of discrimination, persecution and displacement can raise complex emotions regardless of students’ educational level. Teachers will know their own students better than anyone else so should exercise their professional judgement as to the best strategies to deploy; they may, for example, wish to pause at certain points to allow students some time for reflection."

"As highlighted above, teachers should ensure that activities and materials employed in the classroom are age-appropriate, in particular avoiding the use of graphic imagery and/or texts. It is sometimes argued that it is necessary to intentionally shock or upset students for them to appreciate the reality of the Holocaust. Such an approach is disrespectful not only to the memory of innocent men, women and children but also to the intelligence and emotional wellbeing of students, and potentially raises serious questions about child protection."

How do you teach 'pre-war Jewish life and culture, persecution before the Second World War, emigration, and rescue introduces students to themes which are important in their own right and which have significant contemporary relevance' without the context of the holocaust though? Given how children consume media in the modern world.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

To my shame, I've never thought about the definition of the word "Holocaust" before this evening.

I was looking up "Shoah" and was directed to "what is the difference..?"

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-the-terms-holocaust-and-Shoah

Shoah is a respectful word chosen by the victims which refers to the character of what happened to them, to wit, a calamity.

Holocaust is a perverted denigration of the Jews that carries the implicit charge that what the Nazi’s did was a sacred act. This is because a holocaust is the act offering one’s god a burnt sacrifice. The idea that Hitler was worshiping Christ by burning Jews is sick beyond measure. Moreover, Hitler did not claim that.

Remembering that it is the victors who write history, it would appear the Allies are responsible for the horror of that terms deployment.

Let’s stop saying it.

holocaust
ˈhɒləkɔːst/
noun
noun: holocaust; plural noun: holocausts

1. 1.
   destruction or slaughter on a mass scale, especially caused by fire or nuclear war.
   "a nuclear holocaust"
   synonyms: cataclysm, disaster, catastrophe, destruction, devastation, demolition, annihilation, ravaging; More
   • the mass murder of Jews under the German Nazi regime during the period 1941–5. More than 6 million European Jews, as well as members of other persecuted groups, were murdered at concentration camps such as Auschwitz.
     noun: the Holocaust
2. 2.
   historical
   a Jewish sacrificial offering which was burnt completely on an altar.

ˈhɒləkɔːst/
noun
noun: holocaust; plural noun: holocausts

1. 1.
   destruction or slaughter on a mass scale, especially caused by fire or nuclear war.
   "a nuclear holocaust"
   synonyms: cataclysm, disaster, catastrophe, destruction, devastation, demolition, annihilation, ravaging; More
   • the mass murder of Jews under the German Nazi regime during the period 1941–5. More than 6 million European Jews, as well as members of other persecuted groups, were murdered at concentration camps such as Auschwitz.
     noun: the Holocaust
2. 2.
   historical
   a Jewish sacrificial offering which was burnt completely on an altar.

I feel actually revolted that I didn't know this and I've been using the word "holocaust interchangeably with Shoah without really understanding what I was saying.

There is power in words, I believe. Has the word "holocaust" been used enough with the meaning of the horror of what was done to the Jews by the Third Reich that it now has its own meaning?

Or am I (we all) inadvertently perpetuating a despicable slur when we use the word "holocaust"?

 

[Athos]

It comes from the Greek 'holos' and 'kaustus', meaning 'whole' and 'burnt', respectively. It refers to total destruction, which is what the nazis intended for jewry. And the term was in use before being applied to that project, for earlier attempts at annihilation. Whilst many prefer Shoah, a lot of Jewish people still refer to the 'holocaust'; it's far from being a 'despicable slur'.

 

[danny la rouge]

What you've found SheilaNaGig, is an odd opinion from someone on the internet. There are many Jewish historians who use the word "Holocaust", including in books recommended on this thead; the word itself is not a slur.

 

[phillm]

Many thanks for starting this thread Danny - mankind must never forget. I have just seen the excellent (IMO) movie Denial which dramatises the Irving v Penguin Books Ltd case, in which Deborah Lipstadt, a Holocaust scholar, was sued by Holocaust denier David Irving for libel.

It digests the lengthy court case and the backroom tactics that Lipstadt uses to defeat Irving , who defended his case as a victimised 'lone wolf' without legal representation. The film presents the facts in an easily assimilated manner for a mass audience and leaves you in no doubt of the ultimate collapse of the veracity of Irving's 'pseudo-scholarly' history.

The judgement in full.

 

[purenarcotic]

To my shame, I've never thought about the definition of the word "Holocaust" before this evening.

I was looking up "Shoah" and was directed to "what is the difference..?"

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-the-terms-holocaust-and-Shoah







I feel actually revolted that I didn't know this and I've been using the word "holocaust interchangeably with Shoah without really understanding what I was saying.

There is power in words, I believe. Has the word "holocaust" been used enough with the meaning of the horror of what was done to the Jews by the Third Reich that it now has its own meaning?

Or am I (we all) inadvertently perpetuating a despicable slur when we use the word "holocaust"?

I don't think it's a slur at all. My family, who include survivors use the terms interchangeably all the time.

The internet is full of odd opinions, thankfully we can ignore lots of them.

 

[Raheem]

What you've found SheilaNaGig, is an odd opinion from someone on the internet. There are many Jewish historians who use the word "Holocaust", including in books recommended on this thead; the word itself is not a slur.

There's also the Holocaust Educational Trust.

 

[Idris2002]

This may seem frivolous, but here's a link to a thorough debunking of the "Nazi Flying Saucer" myth:

More Magonia: Nazi UFO Mythos, Part One

I say it may seem frivolous, but it isn't, and for this reason, that the Canadian Holocaust Denier Ernst Zundel used to use this nonsense as a means of getting airtime through which he could disseminate his various lies - and the idea of Nazi UFOs is still circulating widely on the internet.

So just in case you ever have the need to debunk that one, the page linked above is the best place to go.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

https://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2017...view-of-a-nazi-controlled-ghetto-henryk-ross/

 

[nuffsaid]

This may seem frivolous, but here's a link to a thorough debunking of the "Nazi Flying Saucer" myth:

More Magonia: Nazi UFO Mythos, Part One

I say it may seem frivolous, but it isn't, and for this reason, that the Canadian Holocaust Denier Ernst Zundel used to use this nonsense as a means of getting airtime through which he could disseminate his various lies - and the idea of Nazi UFOs is still circulating widely on the internet.

So just in case you ever have the need to debunk that one, the page linked above is the best place to go.

No mention of 'Die Glocke' as mentioned in numerous books by Joseph P Farrell, based on investigation by Igor Witkowski. It's worth noting that descriptions of Die Glocke are incredibly similar to the device mentioned in reports in the Kecksburg incident.

Die Glocke - Wikipedia (plenty of video discussion here - die glocke - YouTube )

Kecksburg UFO incident - Wikipedia

Although this is all moving way off the thread topic, but feel free to create a separate thread or pm me.

 

[Idris2002]

No mention of 'Die Glocke' as mentioned in numerous books by Joseph P Farrell, based on investigation by Igor Witkowski. It's worth noting that descriptions of Die Glocke are incredibly similar to the device mentioned in reports in the Kecksburg incident.

Die Glocke - Wikipedia (plenty of video discussion here - die glocke - YouTube )

Kecksburg UFO incident - Wikipedia

Although this is all moving way off the thread topic, but feel free to create a separate thread or pm me.

Well the thing about the Magonia link I posted there is that it's a master class in debunking - and your first link looks to me like exactly the same kind of dubious uncheckable assertions and sheer bloody handwaving that Mclure takes apart in his Magonia stuff.

And you're right, let's not take the thread off topic: if you want to discuss this stuff, create your own thread.

 

[nuffsaid]

Well the thing about the Magonia link I posted there is that it's a master class in debunking - and your first link looks to me like exactly the same kind of dubious uncheckable assertions and sheer bloody handwaving that Mclure takes apart in his Magonia stuff.

And you're right, let's not take the thread off topic: if you want to discuss this stuff, create your own thread.

Hmm, surprised you've never heard of Die Glocke, if you want to debunk UFOs. Take a look around and feel free to let me know if you find some serious debunking.

 

[Idris2002]

The Anne Frank house faces the problems of declining historical memory:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/21/...-semitism.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0

 

[spitfire]

Interview with one of the Nuremberg prosecutors.

'I'm boiling with anger': 97-year-old Nuremberg prosecutor won't give up on peace

 

[danny la rouge]

Marine Le Pen denies French role in wartime roundup of Paris Jews

"The French far-right presidential candidate Marine Le Pen has denied that the French state was responsible for the wartime roundup of Jews at a Paris cycling track who were then sent to Nazi death camps.

The former president Jacques Chirac and the current leader, François Hollande, have both apologised for the role French police played in the corralling of more than 13,000 Jews at the Vel d’Hiv cycling track, which was ordered by Nazi officers in 1942. But Le Pen told the LCI television channel on Sunday: “I don’t think France is responsible for the Vel d’Hiv.”"

Vel' d'Hiv Roundup - Wikipedia

 

[butchersapron]

Long been a staple in mainstream french society. Known as the immunity thesis - argument being that france never had any historical fascism, only what was imported via invasion. Taken seriously by historians. Good discussion of it in 4 chapters of Fascism Returns: Scandal, Revisionism and Ideology since 1980 - edited by Richard J. Goslan.

 

[Idris2002]

Long been a staple in mainstream french society. Known as the immunity thesis - argument being that france never had any historical fascism, only what was imported via invasion. Taken seriously by historians. Good discussion it in 4 chapters of Fascism Returns: Scandal, Revisionism and Ideology since 1980 - edited by Richard J. Goslan.

The Sorrow & the Pity makes Vichy look very much like France's very own, and home-grown, fascist regime.

 

[butchersapron]

The Sorrow & the Pity makes Vichy look very much like France's very own, and home-grown, fascist regime.

Indeed, that's covered in that book i mentioned above. Also makes the interesting suggestion that the film acted out as surrogate confession for what the french state and military did in Algeria.

 

[bimble]

The below is a personal reflection by a historian responding to recent utterances by people such as Le Pen, and the importance of countering them.

"Now, however, we find ourselves drowning in a torrent of fake news and deliberate disinformation that has no relation to truth whatsoever. It must be said, I worry about this a lot, frequently wringing my hands over New Scientist articles about confirmation bias and the psychology of conspiratorial thinking. But, thanks to the labours of those who care about facts, the truth will always float to the surface. Let us paddle over to it, and cling to its reassuring buoyancy while we figure out what the hell to do with all the bullshitters."

Discovering My Family's Holocaust History (It's Been A Strange Week...)

 

[billy_bob]

It comes from the Greek 'holos' and 'kaustus', meaning 'whole' and 'burnt', respectively. It refers to total destruction, which is what the nazis intended for jewry. And the term was in use before being applied to that project, for earlier attempts at annihilation. Whilst many prefer Shoah, a lot of Jewish people still refer to the 'holocaust'; it's far from being a 'despicable slur'.

What you've found SheilaNaGig, is an odd opinion from someone on the internet. There are many Jewish historians who use the word "Holocaust", including in books recommended on this thead; the word itself is not a slur.

As I understand it (but prepared to hear other interpretations) the more generally accepted difference between the terms is that 'holocaust' doesn't always refer specifically/only to the Jewish experience, but also to the other groups who were subjected to (in its broadest definition) genocide or attempted genocide by the Nazis. Clearly, implicit within that is the fact that Jews were overwhelmingly the main target in terms of numbers, but that doesn't make it any less a holocaust for other groups who were targeted. 'Shoah', on the other hand, and not surprisingly, tends to refer more specifically to the experience from a Jewish perspective.

 

[danny la rouge]

As I understand it (but prepared to hear other interpretations) the more generally accepted difference between the terms is that 'holocaust' doesn't always refer specifically/only to the Jewish experience, but also to the other groups who were subjected to (in its broadest definition) genocide or attempted genocide by the Nazis. Clearly, implicit within that is the fact that Jews were overwhelmingly the main target in terms of numbers, but that doesn't make it any less a holocaust for other groups who were targeted. 'Shoah', on the other hand, and not surprisingly, tends to refer more specifically to the experience from a Jewish perspective.

Well, yes, except what we were replying to was a claim that the word Holocaust was itself offensive and an insult to Jews.

 

[billy_bob]

Well, yes, except what we were replying to was a claim that the word Holocaust was itself offensive and an insult to Jews.

Yes, I know. I was quoting your and Athos's posts because I was adding to your replies to that claim, not because I thought I was disagreeing with you or informing you of anything.

 

[spitfire]

I appreciate this isn't as academic as a lot of the other information posted but I hope it is useful nonetheless.

Watched a documentary today about the 168 allied airmen that were put into Buchenwald. Consists of eyewitness testimony and some photographic record.

Lost Airmen of Buchenwald

 

[bimble]

A huge new resource of previously unseen material is about to be made available:
Opening of UN files on Holocaust will 'rewrite chapters of history'

 

[RainbowTown]

Three other books well worth exploring are: Auschwitz: A Doctor's Eyewitness Account by Miklos Nyiszli. Very controversial and very harrowing account of a Jewish forensic doctor who only survived by finding himself working on experiments and autopsies with Joseph Mengele.

Return To Auschwitz by Kitty Hart. Holocaust survivor who was sent to the extermination camp as a 12 year old girl with her mother. Incredibly moving. I think there maybe a TV documentry of the same name.

And finally, one of the most controversial fiction books ever writte: The Portage to San Cristobel of A.H by George Steiner, which caused a furore when published. It's a fictionalised account of Nazi Hunters who find a silent old man living remotely in the Amazon jungle 30 years after World War Two. One Adolf Hitler. The explosive ending, which gives a fictionalised Hitler a voice to justify why the Nazis did what they did, caused uproar. It's a short but extraordinary powerful read.

Finally, as an aside, I've visited Auschwitz-Birkeneau myself and can only describe it as one of the most sobering experiences I've had. If you ever go to Poland, I'd urge you to visit. Quietly devastating.

 

[billy_bob]

I know it sounds unbearably worthy, but a visit to Auschwitz-Birkenau is (or can be) a life-changing experience. Something about it has never left me (20 years on).

 

[billy_bob]

Taking a break from my regular contributions to the 'Why the Guardian is Going Down the Pan' thread, this might be worth a listen:

The shadows of war in Primo Levi...

Others have mentioned him already in this thread. Levi's work is as good as writing on the Holocaust gets.

 

[Idris2002]

In Lithuania:

Vilnius University to honor Jewish students killed in Holocaust - unless they fought the Nazis

 

[Manter]

Today is the anniversary of the start of the Warsaw uprising*; the largest Jewish revolt against the nazis. Jewish and polish resistance fighters took on Germans and the Jewish guards (Collaborators and forced collaborators) for nearly a month.

It resulted in about 71k people - poles and Jews-being killed and swathes of Warsaw being burned by the nazis, and a concentration camp built in its place. About 300 nazis died.

(*Not to be confused with the other Warsaw uprising which was a long and complicated military event. Confusingly also during ww2)

 

[billy_bob]

Talking of resistance, another recommended read: Defiance: The Bielski Partisans by Nechama Tec. Describes the extensive partisan network and community in the Belorussian forests. If you ever feel the literature focuses too much on the Jews as victims, this is the corrective.