Holocaust: the facts

[bimble]

Didn't the same film maker do a separate one on the uprising at Sobibor? Years since I saw it but also a great work.

Seems he did yep. Sobibór, 14 octobre 1943, 16 heures (2001) - IMDb

 

[redsquirrel]

Because I haven't seen it, and it hadn't been suggested to me. But that's what the thread's for: recommendations I missed.

I've not seen it either, but there's stuff about Lanzmann that raises eyebrows, IIRC there was a couple of articles posted on here. I'll try to find them. (Of course that doesn't mean the film isn't worth watching)

 

[danny la rouge]

What I had in mind when starting the thread was, as well as having a list of resources for ourselves, having somewhere to point people who might be at risk of being sucked in by deniers. So too much fiction, even if informed by first hand experience, is probably not going to be helpful.

Work debunking or flagging up deniers might also be worth storing here. A sort of 'denier watch' subfunction, if you like.

 

[danny la rouge]

I've not seen it either, but there's stuff about Lanzmann that raises eyebrows, IIRC there was a couple of articles posted on here. I'll try to find them. (Of course that doesn't mean the film isn't worth watching)

It's well worth being critical.

 

[redsquirrel]

Found it, well one anyway. (Credit to butchersapron for the original link)

Witnesses who might have quarrelled with his interpretation were excluded from the film. This was particularly true in the treatment of Poland, where most of the exterminations took place. We don’t hear from Marek Edelman, one of the leaders of the Warsaw Ghetto rising, probably because his disenchanted view clashed with Lanzmann’s stirring account of it, at the end of Shoah, as a resurrection from the ashes. A member of the Bund, hostile to Zionism, Edelman remained in Poland instead of settling in Israel, which he called a ‘historic failure’. Also missing from Shoah was Wladislaw Bartoszewski, a member of a clandestine network that rescued Polish Jews during the war. Lanzmann interviewed him in Warsaw, but found him ‘boring’, ‘incapable of reliving the past’; his testimony ended up on the cutting-room floor.

EDIT: I also seem to recollect reading something about him obstructing other filmmakers working the the Holocaust, but I could be wrong.

 

[mojo pixy]

There was / is a half-finished film I saw quite a few years ago, which Alfred Hitchcock was involved in making, but at the time (1946 iirc) it was decided the film was too disturbing to be shown to the general public. I believe a documentary was made in 2014 using some of its footage, but the original unfinished film is still viewable. Extremely disturbing stuff, especially the footage of the liberation of Bergen-Belsen.

 

[butchersapron]

Was shown on BBC4 last year. There appears to be some denier stuff on that version - from the loon uploader.

 

[danny la rouge]

Was shown on BBC4 last year. There appears to be some denier stuff on that version - from the loon uploader.

Good spot. Let's be vigilant of our sources folks!

 

[Idris2002]

Many years ago in Belfast I heard Norman Geras speak on the question of the uniqueness of the Holocaust. Does anyone know if he published it anywhere

 

[danny la rouge]

Many years ago in Belfast I heard Norman Geras speak on the question of the uniqueness of the Holocaust. Does anyone know if he published it anywhere

Might it be included in "The Contract of Mutual Indifference: Political Philosophy after the Holocaust" (1999, Verso)? I haven't read it, so can't say.

 

[Idris2002]

Might it be included in "The Contract of Mutual Indifference: Political Philosophy after the Holocaust" (1999, Verso)? I haven't read it, so can't say.

Maybe. I googled for that, and came up with this instead:

Blast, can't get the link to load. It was a list of resources for teaching the Holocaust in primary schools.

Link is here (scroll down):

Diocese of St Albans - Bedfordshire Resource Centre - Contact Us

It's an Anglican church site, by the way, if that matters.

 

[Lurdan]

Christopher Browning's 'The Origins of the Final Solution: The Evolution of Nazi Jewish Policy' is another very good recent overview IMO.

On the genocide of Romani people I liked a recent collection of essays 'The Nazi Genocide of the Roma: Reassessment and Commemoration' edited by Anton Weiss-Wendt. The introduction does a good job of setting out the controversies in this area (notably can it be classed as genocide - this collection is on the yes side but it goes through the arguments). There are then some detailed national studies and some articles about the politics of memory.

Also a book by one of the contributors: Gilad Margalit's 'Germany and Its Gypsies A Post-Auschwitz Ordeal' which looks at attitudes to the Roma and Sinti in Germany from the 19th century to the start of this, and thus with the way they were treated after the war.

I worked out the book about the euthanasia programme I found very useful - it was Henry Friedlander's 'The origins of Nazi genocide' however looking at it again I can see how long ago it was I read it just from the fact it refers throughout to the 'handicapped'. Still a useful overview I think although I imagine there has been other work done since. Rather illustrates that this is an area of study in which there has been a lot of change both in terms of new research and in changes in attitudes over 'the politics of memory'.

 

[chilango]

I have a hard copy of a slim A4 pamhlet provided by the HET entitled The Holocaust by David Cesarini, which is a good, accessible brief intro. Couldn't seem to find a copy on line, however did find this which some may find useful...

Professor David Cesarani’s Introduction to the Holocaust - Part One | Holocaust Memorial Day Trust
Professor David Cesarani’s Introduction to the Holocaust Part Two | Holocaust Memorial Day Trust

 

[bimble]

Just a mention of the Weiner Library (Russel Square). They have a vast collection of resources, including letters photographs, personal testimonies, free to use and open to all. Also do lectures and so on.

 

[chilango]

I also have a copy of this DVD-Rom, which should be available form the HET and clips may be around online somewhere...
Recollections: Eyewitnesses remember the holocaust.

 

[purenarcotic]

To add to personal testimonies:

'Rena's Promise' by Rena Gelissen - true story about Rena and her sisters experience of Auschwitz. There's a lot of detail about camp life.

There is a very good film about Irena Sendler, a Polish Catholic who saved over 2 thousand children in the Warsaw Ghetto by hiding them with families outside the ghetto walls. You can find the film on YouTube, it's called 'The Courageous Heart of Irena Sendler'

 

[SpookyFrank]

Victor Frankl's 'Man's Search For Meaning' contains one of the most compelling personal testimonies I've read, besides the Primo Levi ones aready mentioned.

 

[trabuquera]

Fatelessness is another Imre Kertész that could be on the list

Also maybe for the development of the "idea" further back :
The Kaiser's Holocaust: Germany's Forgotten Genocide and the Colonial Roots of Nazism - Casper Erichsen and David Olusoga

 

[Idris2002]

One thing that came up on the thread that inspired this one was that a lot of people don't really understand what history is, and how we use sources to work out what happened in the past.

Are there any holocaust education things out there that focus on the historical sources and historical evidence, and talk people through why this body of evidence demonstrates the reality of the Shoah?

 

[Argonia]

Thank you for making this thread

 

[ElizabethofYork]

A docu on the Treblinka survivors


Treblinka 2 was not a concentration camp, it was straight off the trains, through 'proccesing' then straight to the gas chambers then the mass burials carried out by jews who were considered useful labour. These men are not liars.

Beyond harrowing.

 

[mojo pixy]

Was shown on BBC4 last year. There appears to be some denier stuff on that version - from the loon uploader.

That's why I posted the original old footage. I don't see the necessity of reworking it into a new movie, unless profit or revisionism is the motive. Or both, more likely.

Let's be vigilant of our sources folks!

Agreed. It'll all be beyond living memory soon so a resource like this thread is vitally important.

 

[butchersapron]

That's why I posted the original old footage. I don't see the necessity of reworking it into a new movie, unless profit or revisionism is the motive. Or both, more likely..

Not quite following you here - the uploader of that video has overlaid an image suggesting that the catholic church rather than hitler/nazis were responsible for the holocaust on the link. It doesn't appear in the video though.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

One thing that came up on the thread that inspired this one was that a lot of people don't really understand what history is, and how we use sources to work out what happened in the past.

Are there any holocaust education things out there that focus on the historical sources and historical evidence, and talk people through why this body of evidence demonstrates the reality of the Shoah?

This stuff always makes me feel a bit uneasy. It's a little like defending evolution against creationism - merely by mentioning holocaust denial and arguing against it, you somehow give it a smidgeon of credibility, as if there were any kind of doubt.

 

[Idris2002]

This stuff always makes me feel a bit uneasy. It's a little like defending evolution against creationism - merely by mentioning holocaust denial and arguing against it, you somehow give it a smidgeon of credibility, as if there were any kind of doubt.

One thing I noticed when I taught in Birmingham is that even though the kids there had heard of Hitler and the Holocaust, they genuinely didn't know anything else at all about modern history (or any other part of history), and they didn't really understand the historical context in which Hitler existed. And I think that lack of historical knowledge is a barrier to full (and fully internalised) understanding of that event. I get what you're saying about the danger of accidentally legitimizing denialism, but the kind of thing I'm thinking of wouldn't necessarily have to mention the existence of holocaust denial. It would just have to teach both the holocaust, historical skills necessary to research and understand the holocaust and other historical events, and the critical thinking skills that would inoculate the students against looney-tune deniers.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

One thing I noticed when I taught in Birmingham is that even though the kids there had heard of Hitler and the Holocaust, they genuinely didn't know anything else at all about modern history (or any other part of history), and they didn't really understand the historical context in which Hitler existed. And I think that lack of historical knowledge is a barrier to full (and fully internalised) understanding of that event. I get what you're saying about the danger of accidentally legitimizing denialism, but the kind of thing I'm thinking of wouldn't necessarily have to mention the existence of holocaust denial. It would just have to teach both the holocaust, historical skills necessary to research and understand the holocaust and other historical events, and the critical thinking skills that would inoculate the students against looney-tune deniers.

Good point. Just as teaching evolution doesn't have to (and shouldn't) mention creationism.

 

[mojo pixy]

the uploader of that video has overlaid an image suggesting that the catholic church rather than hitler/nazis were responsible for the holocaust on the link. It doesn't appear in the video though.

OK I get you; yes there's nothing like that in the film itself. I've watched it carefully twice over the years and I've pointed holocaust deniers towards it countless times.

 

[danny la rouge]

One thing I noticed when I taught in Birmingham is that even though the kids there had heard of Hitler and the Holocaust, they genuinely didn't know anything else at all about modern history (or any other part of history), and they didn't really understand the historical context in which Hitler existed. And I think that lack of historical knowledge is a barrier to full (and fully internalised) understanding of that event. I get what you're saying about the danger of accidentally legitimizing denialism, but the kind of thing I'm thinking of wouldn't necessarily have to mention the existence of holocaust denial. It would just have to teach both the holocaust, historical skills necessary to research and understand the holocaust and other historical events, and the critical thinking skills that would inoculate the students against looney-tune deniers.

On set of skills that might help is in this: http://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/lehre/pmo/eng/Sagan-Baloney.pdf

 

[Plumdaff]

Curious why the film Shoah isn't listed. It's 9 hours long and mainly witness testimony. I haven't seen it yet but would like to know if there's a reason it's not been included.
Did watch his the Last of The Unjust, which was fascinating, difficult and complex.

Shoah was shown on BBC 4 a year or so back. Even given above criticisms I think it's essential. A real under taking given the length but should absolutely be on the list. It's deceptively simple, really, you watch detailed interviews from people who were there. Devastating.

 

[chilango]

I'm not sure how best to phrase/frame this but visits to holocaust sites (and maybe museums) could in some way go on the list?

I visited Auschwitz, Auschwitz-Birkenau and the town with the HET and it was incredibly powerful both emotionally but also in what I saw and understood - physical evidence I suppose. But, the visit was surrounded by days of both preparation and debrief that really helped.

On a lesser scale visiting the Holocaust Museum in Washington was also worthwhile.