Monkeygrinder's Organ
Dodgy geezer swilling vapid lager
Why not? I mean they're pretty much selling themselves as more of the same only more competent, should I not believe them?
Hold your nose and vote Labour?
- Thread starter TopCat
- Start date
Why not? I mean they're pretty much selling themselves as more of the same only more competent, should I not believe them?
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
I want to believe
There are multiple mistakes in thinking that voting for Labour will produce something less bad than not voting for Labour.
First, it depends where you’re voting. Quite aside from the obvious reality that in most seats, your vote wont be important anyway, there is also the fact that in there are many seats in which Labour is not the first or second place party. Then there is the fact that some seats might have a candidate that is simply preferable to Labour’s option, and your vote for Labour is a vote against that candidate. These things all matter.
Second, if we ignore the above, the implication is that the best option is for Labour to win all 650 seats. For them to be unchallenged. I really dispute this. An unchecked Starmer government, with no fear of rebellion, would be horrendous. It needs to be concerned that the combined internal and external opposition might prevent its agenda. So that means there needs to be seats that don’t go to Labour.
Third, I contest in any case that the best immediate, pragmatic, short-term outcome is necessarily a Starmer government with a Tory opposition. To me, that is not dissimilar to the above scenario of an unchecked right-wing Starmer landslide. I would actually prefer no overall majority and Labour’s right-wing agenda to this be discredited as a winning strategy. That has a chance of seeing Starmer replaced with someone less right-wing, who could either prevent a minority Tory government from its agenda or form a less right-wing Labour minority government.
Basically, what I’m saying is that if you want to play realpolitik then you have to do it properly. Even if you want to be “pragmatic” and think about the short-term outcomes, you still have to follow all the possibilities through to their end. And I can’t see that our needs are best served by a blind vote for Starmer’s Labour Party
First, it depends where you’re voting. Quite aside from the obvious reality that in most seats, your vote wont be important anyway, there is also the fact that in there are many seats in which Labour is not the first or second place party. Then there is the fact that some seats might have a candidate that is simply preferable to Labour’s option, and your vote for Labour is a vote against that candidate. These things all matter.
Second, if we ignore the above, the implication is that the best option is for Labour to win all 650 seats. For them to be unchallenged. I really dispute this. An unchecked Starmer government, with no fear of rebellion, would be horrendous. It needs to be concerned that the combined internal and external opposition might prevent its agenda. So that means there needs to be seats that don’t go to Labour.
Third, I contest in any case that the best immediate, pragmatic, short-term outcome is necessarily a Starmer government with a Tory opposition. To me, that is not dissimilar to the above scenario of an unchecked right-wing Starmer landslide. I would actually prefer no overall majority and Labour’s right-wing agenda to this be discredited as a winning strategy. That has a chance of seeing Starmer replaced with someone less right-wing, who could either prevent a minority Tory government from its agenda or form a less right-wing Labour minority government.
Basically, what I’m saying is that if you want to play realpolitik then you have to do it properly. Even if you want to be “pragmatic” and think about the short-term outcomes, you still have to follow all the possibilities through to their end. And I can’t see that our needs are best served by a blind vote for Starmer’s Labour Party
Silas Loom
Man with glasses
Even if electorates could act collectively to game the outcome, which they obviously cannot, this is unsound.
We’ve had hung parliaments or ruling parties hamstrung by internal division for fourteen years. It results in horrendous government. Administrative sclerosis and political triangulation engenders a culture of lies and spin and frustrates decision-making. Astonishing that anyone would want another five years of it.
The worst excesses by far of these Tory governments has come during the points they’ve had a clear majority to deliver their agenda of hate. It would have been better to have no policy at all for 14 years, frankly.
And this…
Is exactly the thing I am saying people should not do. I’m calling for people to vote for things they actually believe in, rather than playing the game of saying “well I better vote for Labour even though I don’t like them because that will somehow work out better”
tommers
It was... Rebekah Vardy's account
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Don't know where you live however I think you should test this out by putting a poster with Thatcher was a visionary, in large letters, in a room facing the street. I'd imagine you'll either have the local Tory club phoning you up to join or you'll be phoning the local glaziers.
_Russ_
Never not Knowingly Misunderstood
She was indeed, but of course mentioning any facet of the enemy that might b construed as a positive feature is damned to provoke the sort of reaction 39th alludes too both out in the real world and figuratively in here
scalyboy
They’re taking the piss now
When I first moved into my current flat, the constituency had a rock-solid 20,000 Tory majority, so I used to vote Green or possibly a smaller left party (can't recall now). Over the years, demographic changes round here have whittled the Tory majority down to a mere 1,000 votes at the last GE, so there's a real chance that if I voted Labour, it could "make a difference" ( 
argh, I loathe that phrase).
But (a) the Tory MP has over the years proved to be a fairly effective constituency MP, intervening in our estate's various long standing problems with the council and HA.
And (b) I'd feel nauseous if Labour got in by a few votes and Sir Keith proceeds to do what many of us here fear he will do, that is, continue Tory policies of hate, division, cruelty and tax breaks for billionaires.
One of the first tests for me is whether he'll abolish the absurd 'deport asylum seekers to Rwanda' scheme or not.
(Incidentally, for a thorough demolishing of the Tory govt fantasy that Rwanda is now a safe and democratic country under Kagame, this looks like a good read; the author compares him to Stalin in 1930s USSR, elimination of political opponents home and abroad, rule by fear, invasion of D.R.C. etc. I've only read the Kindle sample so far, am still reading another book of hers on post-independence Congo / Zaire under Mobutu, very readable and well-researched; she tracks down and interviews Mobutu's childhood friends, schoolteachers and others).
argh, I loathe that phrase). But (a) the Tory MP has over the years proved to be a fairly effective constituency MP, intervening in our estate's various long standing problems with the council and HA.
And (b) I'd feel nauseous if Labour got in by a few votes and Sir Keith proceeds to do what many of us here fear he will do, that is, continue Tory policies of hate, division, cruelty and tax breaks for billionaires.
One of the first tests for me is whether he'll abolish the absurd 'deport asylum seekers to Rwanda' scheme or not.
(Incidentally, for a thorough demolishing of the Tory govt fantasy that Rwanda is now a safe and democratic country under Kagame, this looks like a good read; the author compares him to Stalin in 1930s USSR, elimination of political opponents home and abroad, rule by fear, invasion of D.R.C. etc. I've only read the Kindle sample so far, am still reading another book of hers on post-independence Congo / Zaire under Mobutu, very readable and well-researched; she tracks down and interviews Mobutu's childhood friends, schoolteachers and others).
Dystopiary
putting up a hook to hang my hopes upon
BIB - I get what you're saying (though don't agree) about the Labour Party being the lesser of two evils, but there's no way they themselves aren't right wing.
PTK
Paul Kegan
The worst excesses were surely under the Coalition?
Rob Ray
Weight is meaningless
Folk who have genuinely given up generally don't post on political noticeboards, so you can pretty much guarantee this will never be the answer offered by someone who's being critical of voting Labour. I hope this clarification makes your conversations more efficient in future.
1. If you genuinely think elections are going to solve anything you'd better get canvassing in marginals. What are you doing on here?
2. Other than canvassing is there any political action that has to be geared around the upcoming general election?
Rob Ray
Weight is meaningless
The irony being she eventually created a whole economic hegemony dedicated to destroying that vision. No more nation of shopkeepers for you Maggie, no homeownership for the children of petit-bourgeoisie ...
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
Possibly to the right of the Lib Dems now.
Kid_Eternity
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
The line isn’t that fine, it’s electoral maths based on the current voting system. Sadly all too predictable until that changes…
PTK
Paul Kegan
According to opinion polls, re-establishing state ownership of rail, mail, water, electricity, and gas is supported by a majority of the population.
AnnO'Neemus
Is so vanilla
Agreed.
AnnO'Neemus
Is so vanilla
Although, sadly, that will never fly with the corporate funders of the Labour Party, so it won't happen.
Incredible that they're prepared to argue that nationalisation isn't the answer, standing by while our transport/utilities are bought up by European country's state-owned utility companies.
PTK
Paul Kegan
This is an example of what I believe to be the case, that the junking of policies that are left-wing is not being done purely for electoral considerations. The Blairites simply do not believe in social democracy.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
GarveyLives
Well-Known Member
Media personality, The Right Honourable David Lammy PC FRSA MP, explains his organisation's source of inspiration:
Margaret Thatcher was a ‘visionary’ says Labour’s David Lammy
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
Never been a fan of Labour, but now, they're not even pretending to be anything other than vile right wing shite. Why would anyone with owt about them even think of supporting this shower of cunts?
Even Owen Jones has given up on holding his nose.
www.theguardian.com
This group he's supporting seems a bit opaque -- anyone heard of them?
wedeservebetter.uk
The Labour party is in my blood. Here’s why I’ve just cancelled my membership | Owen Jones
My ancestors could always point to Labour policies that transformed ordinary lives. I cannot say the same, says Guardian columnist Owen Jones
This group he's supporting seems a bit opaque -- anyone heard of them?
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