HELP - Being diddled out of holiday pay?

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

Holiday pay is 5.6 weeks a year
As a freelance in TV they generally work out the percentage as 10.77% instead of 12.07% because they divide by 52 weeks instead of 46.4
I have come to accept that. . . .

However yesterday I got this sum. I immediately thought it was crazy because it appears to diddle me out of £600 quid.
They are mixing the number of days with numbers of weeks in the sum.
I have laid out my own calculations for them but they are sticking by what they sent me.
They say that's how they have always done it (not a small company either)
Can they be right in any way? I am going to have to argue this with people who supposedly did the math and I don't want to get tied in knots.

This is what they sent me

Entitled to 28 days per year
Divided by 52 weeks in the year
Multiplied by weeks contracted – 9.6 wks
Equals – 5.17 days

 

[B.I.G]

Holiday pay is 5.6 weeks a year
As a freelance in TV they generally work out the percentage as 10.77% instead of 12.07% because they divide by 52 weeks instead of 46.4
I have come to accept that. . . .

However yesterday I got this sum. I immediately thought it was crazy because it appears to diddle me out of £600 quid.
They are mixing the number of days with numbers of weeks in the sum.
I have laid out my own calculations for them but they are sticking by what they sent me.
They say that's how they have always done it (not a small company either)
Can they be right in any way? I am going to have to argue this with people who supposedly did the math and I don't want to get tied in knots.

This is what they sent me

Entitled to 28 days per year
Divided by 52 weeks in the year
Multiplied by weeks contracted – 9.6 wks
Equals – 5.17 days

Looks right. How were you doing it?

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

Hold on, I see the diddle now.

What they are saying is that I worked 9.6 weeks but took two bank holidays.
So they take two days from my 5.17 days to get 3.17 days.

I say - because of the bank holidays (and an extra Saturday) I worked 9.2 weeks
Entitled to 28 days per year
Divided by 52 weeks in the year
Multiplied by weeks contracted – 9.2 wks
Equals – 4.95 days

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

Looks right. How were you doing it?

See below.
I have a horrible feeling that is might be legit but still diddles me out of £600
Almost two days holiday pay different.

 

[B.I.G]

See below.
I have a horrible feeling that is might be legit but still diddles me out of £600
Almost two days holiday pay different.

I calculated as I do for my perm job.

But in that we get 20 days plus the 8 bank holidays.

Is that part of their calculation? Did you work the bank holidays? If not I can see why they took it as holiday taken.

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

I calculated as I do for my perm job.

But in that we get 20 days plus the 8 bank holidays.

Is that part of their calculation? Did you work the bank holidays? If not I can see why they took it as holiday taken.

OK check this out . . . .

Entitled to 28 days per year
Divided by 52 weeks in the year
Multiplied by weeks contracted – 9.6 wks
Equals – 5.17 days
Less two days hol (2nd & 3rd June) – 3.17 days

But if I do it by holiday accrued by days actually worked. . .

Entitled to 28 days per year
Divided by 52 weeks in the year
Multiplied by weeks contracted – 9.2 wks (so not including the bank holidays I didn't work)
Equals – 4.95 days

That is almost a whole two days of pay vanished.

 

[AnnaKarpik]

You could play around with this..

Calculate holiday entitlement

Holiday calculator to work out statutory holiday leave in days or hours

www.gov.uk

And maybe send a link to payroll if you keep getting a different answer to them. Payroll - and their software - don't always get it right.

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

You could play around with this..

Calculate holiday entitlement

Holiday calculator to work out statutory holiday leave in days or hours

www.gov.uk

I did, but that's not the issue.

The problem is how that managed to magic away two days holiday pay. Something must be wrong somewhere for such a big difference and I need to know where so I can fight my corner (or not) .

 

[kalmatthew]

Hold on, I see the diddle now.

What they are saying is that I worked 9.6 weeks but took two bank holidays.
So they take two days from my 5.17 days to get 3.17 days.

I say - because of the bank holidays (and an extra Saturday) I worked 9.2 weeks
Entitled to 28 days per year
Divided by 52 weeks in the year
Multiplied by weeks contracted – 9.2 wks
Equals – 4.95 days

They don't have to give you public holidays as extra days off they can come from your leave allowance

 

[B.I.G]

I did, but that's not the issue.

The problem is how that managed to magic away two days holiday pay. Something must be wrong somewhere for such a big difference and I need to know where so I can fight my corner (or not) .

Is this through an umbrella company?

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

So that's a big difference right? So how is this smoke and mirrors working?

They don't have to give you public holidays as extra days off they can come from your leave allowance

This isn't the issue. I was originally contracted to work the bank holidays, but they moved those days to the end of the contract. I'm freelance, I don't get paid bank holidays. Let's just say I didn't work those two days.

 

[quimcunx]

If you didn't work the bank holidays then you've used those days as holiday

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

Is this through an umbrella company?

I am freelance, I am working for a TV production company as an editor.
I will have worked a total of 9.6 weeks if you include the two bank holidays
I have actually worked a total of 9.2 weeks (because I didn't work two days, but did and extra Saturday)

 

[B.I.G]

I am freelance, I am working for a TV production company as an editor.
I will have worked a total of 9.6 weeks if you include the two bank holidays
I have actually worked a total of 9.2 weeks (because I didn't work two days, but did and extra Saturday)

But are you paid through an umbrella company?

I found this that may assist if so.

Your Umbrella Company Holiday Pay Explained

Do you get Holiday Pay with an Umbrella Company? We explain how Umbrella Company Holiday Pay works, how much you're entitled to, and how it gets paid.

www.umbrellacompany.co.uk

The only other way I have experience of freelancers is they invoice for the days they get paid.

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

If you didn't work the bank holidays then you've used those days as holiday

Yes I know. . . . but what is creating the huge disparity between the two sums?

Entitled to 28 days per year
Divided by 52 weeks in the year
Multiplied by weeks contracted – 9.6 wks
Equals – 5.17 days - Less two days hol (2nd & 3rd June) – 3.17 days

But if I do it by holiday accrued by days actually worked. . .

Entitled to 28 days per year
Divided by 52 weeks in the year
Multiplied by weeks contracted – 9.2 wks (so not including the bank holidays I didn't work)
Equals – 4.95 days

 

[quimcunx]

Right did they extend your contract by 2 days?

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

But are you paid through an umbrella company?

I found this that may assist if so.

Your Umbrella Company Holiday Pay Explained

Do you get Holiday Pay with an Umbrella Company? We explain how Umbrella Company Holiday Pay works, how much you're entitled to, and how it gets paid.

www.umbrellacompany.co.uk

The only other way I have experience of freelancers is they invoice for the days they get paid.

Am I the umbrella company?
and yes, I normally invoice for the days I have worked and work out the holiday pay on top of that. It's the TV company that have insisted that the sum is done their way.
I need to have a solid way to contest this and save myself losing £600

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

Right did they extend your contract by 2 days?

Yes.

I worked a total of 9.2 weeks/
They say I worked 9.6 weeks but took 0.4 weeks off during that period.

 

[B.I.G]

Am I the umbrella company?
and yes, I normally invoice for the days I have worked and work out the holiday pay on top of that. It's the TV company that have insisted that the sum is done their way.
I need to have a solid way to contest this and save myself losing £600

An umbrella company receives the money from the company so if you are paid direct by the company then no umbrella company is involved.

But then I never experienced a freelancer including holiday pay. I only experienced their day rate with no sick or holiday pay.

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

The

An umbrella company receives the money from the company so if you are paid direct by the company then no umbrella company is involved.

But then I never experienced a freelancer including holiday pay. I only experienced their day rate with no sick or holiday pay.

I'm schedule D. Do my own taxes. My company name is my name and I file my taxes for that business. I am not a limited company where I don't get holiday pay.

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

The only bit I am interested in is the disappearance of 'almost' (but not exactly) two days pay. Yes I had two bank holidays, but which part that is different in the two sums is causing the vanishing two days pay?
If I just worked the two bank holidays and didn't do the two extra days on the end of the contract I would be £600 better off. I have worked the same number of days.

How?

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

I think the question is if you got paid for the bank holidays isn't it. If you did then they're right, if not then I think you are.

So did they pay you 9.6 weeks or 9.2?

 

[Winot]

The entitlement they have given you (28 days) is the legal minimum under the Working Time directive and includes the 8 UK public holidays. They come out of the entitlement. So I'm afraid their calculation looks correct.

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

The entitlement they have given you (28 days) is the legal minimum under the Working Time directive and includes the 8 UK public holidays. They come out of the entitlement. So I'm afraid their calculation looks correct.

So why if I do the sum the other way there is a £600 difference? That's a big difference.

.

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

I think the question is if you got paid for the bank holidays isn't it. If you did then they're right, if not then I think you are.

So did they pay you 9.6 weeks or 9.2?

They paid me (or rather will be paying me) for 9.2.

Of course. I get it now. That's where the money has gone.
Now I just need to put that on my invoice that I got two days 'paid' holiday.

This is still going to be awkward. . . . I was also a bit upset on the phone with them this afternoon, probably doesn't help my case.

 

[newbie]

I used to get ACTT to sort that kind of thing out, and very good they were too, they understand freelancing. I think they're called Progess now..

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Freelance holiday pay? That’s a thing? Work x days, invoice for x * dayrate

 

[SpookyFrank]

Freelance holiday pay? That’s a thing? Work x days, invoice for x * dayrate

I get paid by an umbrella company. They take a cut of my daily rate (calculated at 12.07% as ATOMIC SUPLEX details above) and give it back to me as 'holiday pay'. This is their new scam now they're not allowed to do 'rolled up' holiday pay, ie not actually giving you any holiday pay and just telling you it's included in your day rate.

Either way it works out that my holiday pay comes out of my own pocket, not my employer's. The one small advantage is I save a few pennies on tax. But with rebates and so on, that's probably an illusion as well

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

Freelance holiday pay? That’s a thing? Work x days, invoice for x * dayrate

It's not only a thing, it's supposed to be the law. . . . or at least it was. It used to be very clear on he HMRC website until the tories got in, (very easy to show employers the legal bit) then it all disappeared withn a week.
Usually I will make sure what they have in the contract before I start a job. If you don't ask they won't tell you it exist, (I know other editors on the same job who didn't know and just never asked for it) but if you do they never question it. Most companies do the sum deliberately wrong to come up with 10.77% instead of 12.07%. More than anything that makes my OCD tingle, but I think I am almost over that now (after 15 years of freelance).

Usually I invoice for days worked, then in the last invoice add 10.77% for all the days worked. This one was weird because they told me how to do my sums before I submitted my invoice. I just ignored it and submitted it as usual. Then they told me to do it again. . . their way. This left me £600 short. I thought it was something in the way they were calculating the holiday, but as Monkey Grinder pointed out, it was simply that they were not paying me for my paid holiday. I was just confused initially by their sum, I didn't get why they didn't just add 10.77% to my days worked.

You could say I could just ask for a higher day rate and call it 'rolled up holiday pay' but that's technically breaking employment law on both sides.
When they ask my day rate terms I always say XXX plus 12.07% holiday. . . They always say "We pay 10.77%, is that ok?" and I reply "sure, but my day rate has now increased by a fiver".

 

[SpookyFrank]

It's not only a thing, it's supposed to be the law. . . . or at least it was. It used to be very clear on he HMRC website until the tories got in, (very easy to show employers the legal bit) then it all disappeared withn a week.

It still is the law but of course it's widely ignored and there's zero enforcement. My previous job, working for a sole employer but on a 'freelance' basis, I never got a brass penny in holiday pay.