Harvard scientists reverse the ageing process in mice – now for humans...
- Thread starter gorski
- Start date
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
See the question?
*zip, swerve, zip*
That's you, avoiding it. Even if you wanted to look at preventative healthcare (such as encouraging people to excercise and improve their diet), again there is only so much money you can throw at it, and like all health advertising & campainging, the results don't really show for years, even tens of years (vis-a-vis smoking)
But that is irrelevant in the face of a Hospital or GP that has the choice of spending £50k on employing a nurse for 2 years, or spending it on a 3-6 month course of palliative care drugs. When the NHS was started, no one had any concept of the kinds of treatment that are available today, nor the marketisation of patient demand for every 'treatment' available, irrespective of it's efficacy.
*zip, swerve, zip*
That's you, avoiding it. Even if you wanted to look at preventative healthcare (such as encouraging people to excercise and improve their diet), again there is only so much money you can throw at it, and like all health advertising & campainging, the results don't really show for years, even tens of years (vis-a-vis smoking)
But that is irrelevant in the face of a Hospital or GP that has the choice of spending £50k on employing a nurse for 2 years, or spending it on a 3-6 month course of palliative care drugs. When the NHS was started, no one had any concept of the kinds of treatment that are available today, nor the marketisation of patient demand for every 'treatment' available, irrespective of it's efficacy.
gorski
customised free radical
Ever heard of Brazil, South Africa and India, for instance? How did they cave in to the major companies and their 50k drugs?
Or Sweden and such countries? Do you really think that the US and UK are the only "reality" there is? Ever contextualised your own "perception" of "reality"?
What, are we all gonna have cancer and we are all gonna need the latest drugs of 50k a pop? And we are never gonna be able to raise taxes for the rich and the corporations?
On top of that, most fundamental research is done by the state, on Uni's, various Institutes and RC's founded and funded by the tax payer and we are all supposed to be good soldiers, get amnesia and forget that is OUR money and we should get something in return, not let the state simply give it away to the corporations?!?
Honestly...
Or Sweden and such countries? Do you really think that the US and UK are the only "reality" there is? Ever contextualised your own "perception" of "reality"?
What, are we all gonna have cancer and we are all gonna need the latest drugs of 50k a pop? And we are never gonna be able to raise taxes for the rich and the corporations?
On top of that, most fundamental research is done by the state, on Uni's, various Institutes and RC's founded and funded by the tax payer and we are all supposed to be good soldiers, get amnesia and forget that is OUR money and we should get something in return, not let the state simply give it away to the corporations?!?
Honestly...
TruXta
tired
Are you honestly saying that Sweden, India, Brazil and SA run their HC systems without using cost-benefit analyses? Don't you live in Sweden?
e2a that you're still swerving, not that I ever expected you to own up to a glaring hole in your so-called argument.
gorski
customised free radical
Btw, this is laughable: http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/th...ly-Discovered-Evidence-for-Psychic-Phenomena-! - you're asking ppl to "open their minds to novelty" and in this thread to "close their mind to anything potentially different then 'reality'"... 
Madre mia!!! 
It reminds me of "pro-lifers" in the US, who are also vehemently, by-and-large, pro-death sentence...
Madre mia!!! It reminds me of "pro-lifers" in the US, who are also vehemently, by-and-large, pro-death sentence...
TruXta
tired
Seriously, what is this pathological need to avoid facing the simple truth that ALL the Scando HC systems - like the NHS and every other state HC system I can think about - use standard economic and management practices?
Does Sweden have a great system? Yes. Does Norway? Yes. Does the UK? Yes. Does France? Yes. Are they all run by standard c/b rules? You betcha. No matter how they're financed, no matter the specific historic circumstances that produced these systems - they all work the same as any other branch of the state: you calculate how to get as much as you can from the money you have. You allocate finite resources as per the priorities set up by their governing institutions.
If that's something you disagree with I respectfully suggest you see a mental health professional. I mean it.
Does Sweden have a great system? Yes. Does Norway? Yes. Does the UK? Yes. Does France? Yes. Are they all run by standard c/b rules? You betcha. No matter how they're financed, no matter the specific historic circumstances that produced these systems - they all work the same as any other branch of the state: you calculate how to get as much as you can from the money you have. You allocate finite resources as per the priorities set up by their governing institutions.
If that's something you disagree with I respectfully suggest you see a mental health professional. I mean it.
gorski
customised free radical
I actually used both the UK and Swedish NHS system [as well as ex-YU system]. So, go bother somebody who hasn't a clue...
And get the:
1) elementary decency lessons
2) elementary logics lessons
3) elementary humility lessons
4) take your own advice re. shrinks, as you really need it, in your pomposity...
And get the:
1) elementary decency lessons
2) elementary logics lessons
3) elementary humility lessons
4) take your own advice re. shrinks, as you really need it, in your pomposity...
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Yes, but you still haven't come back with an actual reply to TruX' question about how you'd fund and staff a HC system without some kind of utilitarian assessment of how to deploy resources. You haven't said anything of substance, in fact - only gone off on some kind of monologue on how there's a difference between Sweden and India. Yes, thanks for pointing that out.
I'd also point out here that I've studied the differing managment & clinical practices of the French, German and Norwegian HC systems so am well aware of the differences in both management and clinical priorities. Doesn't alter the fact that they all ultimately work (or don't work) on limited resources, and that you haven't responded to how you would change this.
I'd also point out here that I've studied the differing managment & clinical practices of the French, German and Norwegian HC systems so am well aware of the differences in both management and clinical priorities. Doesn't alter the fact that they all ultimately work (or don't work) on limited resources, and that you haven't responded to how you would change this.
Crispy
The following psytrance is baṉned: All
Gorski, taking the argument to the limit, to show how it works:
Let's imagine a treatment that cures cancer, 100% reliably. Unfortunately, the process requires .01 grams of antimatter. This is totally possible to make, but requires the use of lots of resources. The cost of a gram of antimatter is estimated at about $25b.
There is not enough productive output in the world to give everybody this treatment. That's not fair.
The fact of the matter is that no matter how fair and equitable and utopian a society we could construct today on earth, there are still material limits on what we can do. That applies to healthcare, just as much as it applies to building skyscrapers, diving to the bottom of the sea or flying very fast.
Triage and cost/benefit is a fundamental part of healthcare and you can't magic it away with a better society.
Let's imagine a treatment that cures cancer, 100% reliably. Unfortunately, the process requires .01 grams of antimatter. This is totally possible to make, but requires the use of lots of resources. The cost of a gram of antimatter is estimated at about $25b.
There is not enough productive output in the world to give everybody this treatment. That's not fair.
The fact of the matter is that no matter how fair and equitable and utopian a society we could construct today on earth, there are still material limits on what we can do. That applies to healthcare, just as much as it applies to building skyscrapers, diving to the bottom of the sea or flying very fast.
Triage and cost/benefit is a fundamental part of healthcare and you can't magic it away with a better society.
gorski
customised free radical
Fuck me, you guys really can't think on the level of principles.
What do you want: a day to day programme, as if I am in office, running a Gov or at least that Dptm?
For crying out loud, can anyone do it? Indeed, you aren't doing it either but you are asking me to do it? Well, bollox to you, too!!!
But if we are talking on the level of principles, then you really are talking old fashioned conservative bollox!!! That was proven to be wrong in every respect but you are still regurgitating it...
Oh, well, suit yourselves...
What do you want: a day to day programme, as if I am in office, running a Gov or at least that Dptm?
For crying out loud, can anyone do it? Indeed, you aren't doing it either but you are asking me to do it? Well, bollox to you, too!!!
But if we are talking on the level of principles, then you really are talking old fashioned conservative bollox!!! That was proven to be wrong in every respect but you are still regurgitating it...
Oh, well, suit yourselves...
TruXta
tired
There is no issue to be addressed.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
g, on the level of principles, I'd have a national healthcare system that was free at point of delivery (which the NHS is, and nowhere else), was capable of running strong national and local campaigns on preventative healthcare, had a culture of transparent and open disclosure on any fuckups that happened. On the level of principle, I'd have the best treatments available all the time.
The funny thing is, regarding the immortality thing, you're not even begining to scratch the surface on the problems that longevity and other anti-agatics could bring to society. All you want to talk about is how such a development would fit into the existing socioeconomic milieu, not how it could radically and dangerously unbalance society.
The funny thing is, regarding the immortality thing, you're not even begining to scratch the surface on the problems that longevity and other anti-agatics could bring to society. All you want to talk about is how such a development would fit into the existing socioeconomic milieu, not how it could radically and dangerously unbalance society.
TruXta
tired
See, this is where you're not making any sense. Again.
gorski
customised free radical
Or improve it, K... 
Maybe it's all for the better and will lead to some great improvements, making it all cheaper, us more productive and happier, which can go with better health...
UK is a bad, poorly run country ATM, from Utilitarian or other simplistic grounds... So is NHS: crap and not properly inclusive, unlike Sweden, for instance....
Maybe it's all for the better and will lead to some great improvements, making it all cheaper, us more productive and happier, which can go with better health...UK is a bad, poorly run country ATM, from Utilitarian or other simplistic grounds... So is NHS: crap and not properly inclusive, unlike Sweden, for instance....
gorski
customised free radical
Learn to think with some humility: you forgot to add at the end of your first sentence: "...to me"!
And no, I won't be losing any sleep over it.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
No no, I've just dechipered what you mean by it, and that's taken me 8 minutes. I think you mean 'Talk with your head, not your heart.'
TruXta
tired
I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that, certainly not me. The disagreement is of course in the implementation bit. Gorski seems most resistant to the idea that cost accounting and such is a necessary ingredient of any realistic (given a broad definition of realistic) HC system, yet cannot for the life of him answer the simple question of how, broadly, a non-utilitarian HC system would actually function. I'm not talking about day-to-day running of the system - just the basic principles.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Meh, I cannae be arsed *unsubs*
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