Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
Is there a good layman's summary of exactly how badly they're being screwed over?
Strikes me that would be useful.
Global financial system implosion begins
- Thread starter Falcon
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Is there a good layman's summary of exactly how badly they're being screwed over?
Strikes me that would be useful.
I thought Ron Paul has nothing to do with the Tea Party
He's not part of the Tea party, but he's referred to as the Godfather. Who knows. Maybe this is the source of my confusion.
NEF have produced "Where did our money go?", though I suspect this is too detailed for a "layman's summary"
ferrelhadley
There is no love between us anymore.
Global manufacturing stutters
indexes hover near recession levels for manufacturing.
Edited US numbers in. Flat.
indexes hover near recession levels for manufacturing.
Edited US numbers in. Flat.
ska invita
back on the other side
wow
elbows
Well-Known Member
Its a very important subject, too important to leave to the sorts of shits that have written that article and drool over gold & silver on a daily basis.
Its rather obvious that they have an agenda, because they fail to mention how much of this staggering sum is still outstanding, and how much has vanished back to nothing because its not needed anymore. This is just as important as the total mentioned in the headlines, but they don't care about painting an accurate picture, they just want to wank on about the death of the dollar and sex things up by describing it as a secret slush fund, when in fact some of these amounts were already well known.
Lets have a look at the detail. I don't propose to read this entire document, nor to understand all of it, but there is a table on page 4 which I think can answer my questions and paint a more informative picture.
http://sanders.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/GAO Fed Investigation.pdf
So quite a lot of the facilities which were made available at the height of the financial crisis and accounted for very large amounts, have returned to a balance of $0. There are a few areas where very large sums are still owed, and these seem most often to be related to mortgage-backed securities, which should come as no surprise considering this area was one of the major underlying factors which triggered the woe in the first place.
Damn it, we get the idea that the rich have been bailed out, but when looking for decent stories about this we always run into people with a currency agenda, and I trust them even less than the extremely dodgy system as a whole.
ohmyliver
poppin' like a cork
Who's the person who wrote this? What's his angle? I noticed that this was last part of the article:
"Knowing that it is coming and and knowing you are having a hard time committing to massive change for fear of looking stupid with the neighbors,what do you do? I spent 6 years putting together the Sons of Liberty Academy to help people get past this mental block and to give them the absolute confidence to take massive action in their lives to be aware and prepared for the largest event in human history. It is free and supported by the generous donations of our 8,200+ members. Join the Academy today to be aware and prepared."
Apart from his membership drive, I find:
I expect, on the basis of these quotes, that a further dig around his sites would produce references to the great International Banker Federal Reserve Conspiracy. Fruitloop, in other words.
gosub
~#
trouble is, if you ignore people telling you to buy gold, then you are dismissing who may well have a clue how markets work, as it would be hard to find a better investment, had you bought in 2008. Suppose the clue should be date of article, that one pretty late so probably bandwandon stuff. That said still seeing record prices for isoteric investments such as art and bottles of wine, though do find it annoying when they make the news, they never mention that high price is driven by capital flight from markets
Not dismissing, suspecting, on the basis of keywords leading, as I said, a strong suspicion that he's into Federal Reserve Conspiracy!!!! stuff.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Like I said, the fact that they didn't mention how much of the money had been repaid tells us something about their agenda.
Anyway, do numbers in the trillions mean anything to most people? At the very least when such numbers are thrown around we should consider that the worlds combined GDP in 2010 was 63 trillion, the USA 14.5 trillion, UK 2.2 trillion. (Hopefully I have done my trillion conversions properly).
Also looking at the document I linked to earlier, Im not entirely sure where they got the amount of $16 trillion from, if I add up figures on page 4 its more like 3.5 trillion? But I suppose the figures in that table show peak outstanding amount, not total leant.
There are lots of things badly wrong with the economy, and I do not expect everything to work out well in the years ahead. But spare me the currency swine and their foul smelling agenda.
Anyway, do numbers in the trillions mean anything to most people? At the very least when such numbers are thrown around we should consider that the worlds combined GDP in 2010 was 63 trillion, the USA 14.5 trillion, UK 2.2 trillion. (Hopefully I have done my trillion conversions properly).
Also looking at the document I linked to earlier, Im not entirely sure where they got the amount of $16 trillion from, if I add up figures on page 4 its more like 3.5 trillion? But I suppose the figures in that table show peak outstanding amount, not total leant.
There are lots of things badly wrong with the economy, and I do not expect everything to work out well in the years ahead. But spare me the currency swine and their foul smelling agenda.
elbows
Well-Known Member
To conclude my ranting on this subject, the gold fuckers can highlight a couple of the important things that are very wrong. So they have some use in that respect. But their focus is really narrow, they offer no solutions for society as a whole, and they are positioned to take advantage of the situation for themselves so its in their interests to talk things up on this front. I am interested in peak oil, and so there is some overlap between my expectations for the future and theirs, but I refuse to be bedfellows with them, or malthusians etc, as they approach the problem from a very ugly angle.
For example, it may seem reasonable to cry at the injustice of people losing their savings that they worked hard for, as a result of currency losing value in real terms. But were their savings ever really worth what was claimed? How do the people on the investors circuit who rant about the sins and horrors of the present system, think their own wealth that was created in this environment is legitimate and worthy of protecting? Making noise about the bailouts & protection that those at the top have received is a good idea, but the way some people do it leaves me thinking they care less that the burden should be evenly shared by all, and would actually like the same protection 'the bankers' got to extend to themselves, and screw everyone else, 'not my problem, sorry you should have saved yourself by buying my survivalist book and gold'. Perhaps this also explains why they do not seem keen to talk about other forms of savings that the wider masses may enjoy and may actually have been protected to an extent by the various bailouts. Pensions and the 'value' of peoples homes for a start.
Therefore its even possible that I will laugh if the time comes one day that governments feel the need to take gold back from private hands, that'l give people something to shout about!
Meanwhile, now that the US political posturing over the debt seems to be reaching a conclusion, attention returns to the rather large crisis that certain European countries and the EU as a whole faces.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/aug/02/euro-faces-meltdown-in-the-august-heat
For example, it may seem reasonable to cry at the injustice of people losing their savings that they worked hard for, as a result of currency losing value in real terms. But were their savings ever really worth what was claimed? How do the people on the investors circuit who rant about the sins and horrors of the present system, think their own wealth that was created in this environment is legitimate and worthy of protecting? Making noise about the bailouts & protection that those at the top have received is a good idea, but the way some people do it leaves me thinking they care less that the burden should be evenly shared by all, and would actually like the same protection 'the bankers' got to extend to themselves, and screw everyone else, 'not my problem, sorry you should have saved yourself by buying my survivalist book and gold'. Perhaps this also explains why they do not seem keen to talk about other forms of savings that the wider masses may enjoy and may actually have been protected to an extent by the various bailouts. Pensions and the 'value' of peoples homes for a start.
Therefore its even possible that I will laugh if the time comes one day that governments feel the need to take gold back from private hands, that'l give people something to shout about!
Meanwhile, now that the US political posturing over the debt seems to be reaching a conclusion, attention returns to the rather large crisis that certain European countries and the EU as a whole faces.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/aug/02/euro-faces-meltdown-in-the-august-heat
Elbows:
Is the Malthusian perspective ugly because it sees things far too clearly for comfort - that population and resource consumption have overshot any feasible level of sustainability? Yes, there are a lot of crazy folk out there, wanking over the price of precious metals and stocking up on ammo and freeze-dried food. Until we can accept the need to reduce population to sustainable levels and live within our means, things are never going to get any better.
Is the Malthusian perspective ugly because it sees things far too clearly for comfort - that population and resource consumption have overshot any feasible level of sustainability? Yes, there are a lot of crazy folk out there, wanking over the price of precious metals and stocking up on ammo and freeze-dried food. Until we can accept the need to reduce population to sustainable levels and live within our means, things are never going to get any better.
I wish they'd get on with it (the collapse of the Euro etc) then we can move on to something that makes sense and works properly, instead of the current "we all know we're f***ed but we're all going to lend astronomical sums of "funny money" to each other to petend we aren't" scenario......
Giles..
Giles..
elbows
Well-Known Member
Things have gotten bad enough again that I'm paying attention, and the Guardian have a 'stock market plunge - live updates' page which contains some interesting stuff.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/aug/04/stock-markets-exchange-plunge-business
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/aug/04/stock-markets-exchange-plunge-business
elbows
Well-Known Member
Im more interested in the consumption habits of those who are alive, than population levels. And there are many different ways to come up with a 'sustainable population' figure, plenty of room for ugly political agendas and unfairness to soil things on this front, and it depends what lifestyle assumptions are used. Id far rather we had not gotten into this mess in the first place, but since we did I rather think the issues of sustainability which we won't face are just going to have to come to the fore at the last possible moment, once the unsustainable activities cannot be sustained for a moment longer.
Personally I'm stuck in a holding pattern awaiting further developments. If the markets cannot handle these realities without melting, then we need to get past the silly market ideas and return to 'man with a plan'. By the looks of the last 3 years, we are not there yet, they've just been propping up the old ways and who knows how long such a strategy can really hold off the shitstorm.
Assuming we do at some point get back to a situation where other ideas gain traction, I'll have to be even more wary of the Malthusian stuff. However I suspect that much of what lies ahead that may affect population levels will not be driven by the politics of population control, but rather as the most horrific side-effect of numerous failings in systems that have enabled such populations to exist in the first place. And I don't think anything is completely inevitable on this front, there is much to struggle for. Blind optimism and greed may have gotten us into this mess, but that does not mean that solutions should be entirely optimism-free ffs.
Capitalism is doomed, western companies relocating to the third world mainly for cheaper labour costs, workers in the west ending up on the dole and therefore cant afford to buy the products being made in the third world, third world workers unable to buy the products they are making due to being paid the equivelant of a bowl of rice a day, leading to a downward spiral.
Add to that the existance of compound interest and the world is in a mess.
Add to that the existance of compound interest and the world is in a mess.
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
Stephen Hester of RBS put his finger on it this morning - the "banking crisis" was not just an issue of bad practice on behalf of the banks - it was a symptom of capitalism in crisis (he didn't quite say it in these terms - he said "imbalances in the way we organise our economy" but the meaning was clear). These imbalances aren't self correcting - the next crisis is a matter of when not if. It may be upon us already, but if not it's only delaying the inevitable.
stuff_it
Too skool for cool
CIA plant?
Barking_Mad
Non sibi sed omnibus
Guardian
9.32am:
My colleague Nick Fletcher says the last time we had three days of triple-digit point falls on the FTSE 100 was in September 2008 after Lehman Brothers collapsed, triggering the global financial crisis.
9.32am:
My colleague Nick Fletcher says the last time we had three days of triple-digit point falls on the FTSE 100 was in September 2008 after Lehman Brothers collapsed, triggering the global financial crisis.
DownwardDog
Riding a Brompton with a power meter.
Apple stock. $90ish at the end of 2008, $380 now.
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