Getting a tree preservation order

[TruXta]

Has anyone got any experience applying for a TPO? I'm considering applying for one for a big oak tree out the front of the house. Wouldn't bother if it wasn't for a new neighbour who insists it his tree (it's not, in all likelihood, although it sits right across the boundary) and blatantly wants to chop it down so he can extend the house he's bought and stuff as many tenants as possible into it.

I'm determined to put a stop to those plans (the chopping down bit) and this might be a potential move forward.

Anyone?

 

[bemused]

Tree Preservation Orders and trees in conservation areas - GOV.UK

Looks like you have to ping your local planning team.

 

[TruXta]

Tree Preservation Orders and trees in conservation areas - GOV.UK

Looks like you have to ping your local planning team.

Thanks, I've already looked into the legal aspects. I'm more curious to know if anyone has had any notable successes or failures, and what factors led to win/lose.

 

[bemused]

Thanks, I've already looked into the legal aspects. I'm more curious to know if anyone has had any notable successes or failures, and what factors led to win/lose.

Could you check to see if there other TPOs in the area?

 

[TruXta]

Could you check to see if there other TPOs in the area?

Already have, there are a few but nowhere in the immediate vicinity.

 

[campanula]

Quite apart from the loveliness of a mature tree, one of the defining criteria for TPOs is 'amenity value'...or if a lot of people love it...so when you make an application (which is, afaik, fairly straightforward), your case will be immeasurably strengthened if you can get statements from locals (and make sure you mention how many species a mature oak can support (over 400) - the highest wildlife value of all native trees.

 

[TruXta]

Quite apart from the loveliness of a mature tree, one of the defining criteria for TPOs is 'amenity value'...or if a lot of people love it...so when you make an application (which is, afaik, fairly straightforward), your case will be immeasurably strengthened if you can get statements from locals (and make sure you mention how many species a mature oak can support (over 400) - the highest wildlife value of all native trees.

Thanks, that's really helpful. Do you think it's worth getting some paid input from a tree surgeon or similar?

 

[Crispy]

Brainaddict

 

[campanula]

Thanks, that's really helpful. Do you think it's worth getting some paid input from a tree surgeon or similar?

Not really. Mostly, tree surgeons would get involved if remedial work was involved...such as lifting or thinning the crown...however, in the interests of neighbourly relations, have you talked to your neighbour about the possibility of doing some work to increase the amount of light/remove potentially dangerous limbs/increase access (why does he want the tree gone?)? It might be that this approach works better and will almost certainly need a survey by a good arbourist (the council will have a list of recommendations).

Truxta, have a look at the main tree surgeon forum, Arbtalk. There is a lot of information about TPOs and a wealth of good ideas from the hugely experienced arbourists who post on the forum. A really good subforum on fungi...and another one on knots.

@Mr Bishie?

 

[TruXta]

Not really. Mostly, tree surgeons would get involved if remedial work was involved...such as lifting or thinning the crown...however, in the interests of neighbourly relations, have you talked to your neighbour about the possibility of doing some work to increase the amount of light/remove potentially dangerous limbs/increase access (why does he want the tree gone?)? It might be that this approach works better and will almost certainly need a survey by a good arbourist (the council will have a list of recommendations).

Truxta, have a look at the main tree surgeon forum, Arbtalk. There is a lot of information about TPOs and a wealth of good ideas from the hugely experienced arbourists who post on the forum. A really good subforum on fungi...and another one on knots.

@Mr Bishie?

We've had one tree surgeon each come look at it, in my case with a view to pruning, but neighbour wants it down entirely. I offered to pay for it, but no dice. We're having a chat in a couple of days, hopefully he won't take the piss.

 

[campanula]

Conflicting advice regarding the efficacy of TPOs if planning permission for development has already been granted...while trees in conservation areas automatically have some protection, inasmuch as permission to fell has to be obtained from the city of district council. Probably the best thing is to phone your council and ask to speak to the tree officer (there will be one). Have a reason based on wildlife use and amenity value rather than preventing more residential development. Good luck.

 

[TruXta]

Conflicting advice regarding the efficacy of TPOs if planning permission for development has already been granted...while trees in conservation areas automatically have some protection, inasmuch as permission to fell has to be obtained from the city of district council. Probably the best thing is to phone your council and ask to speak to the tree officer (there will be one). Have a reason based on wildlife use and amenity value rather than preventing more residential development. Good luck.

Cheers. I haven't seen any plans come through the post yet so unsure if permission has been sought even.

 

[scifisam]

It's probably worth getting someone in to check the tree out and confirm it's healthy in order to pre-empt him falsely claiming the tree needs putting out of its misery. If you search for that Chestnut Avenue (Tooting) group - the ones who unsuccessfully tried to stop the council turning it into Completely Barren Avenue - they might know someone you can contact because they had their trees checked out.

Good on you for trying. Developers really seem to hate trees.

 

[TruXta]

It's probably worth getting someone in to check the tree out and confirm it's healthy in order to pre-empt him falsely claiming the tree needs putting out of its misery. If you search for that Chestnut Avenue (Tooting) group - the ones who unsuccessfully tried to stop the council turning it into Completely Barren Avenue - they might know someone you can contact because they had their trees checked out.

Good on you for trying. Developers really seem to hate trees.

Already have, twice checked by independent tree surgeons, both agree that the tree is overall healthy, if in need of a good pruning down.

 

[Brainaddict]

For the council to seriously consider a TPO all they need to know is that it has landscape value and is potentially under threat. That should be enough for the tree officers to consider serving a TPO, once you've asked them to take a look, so I wouldn't spend money on experts at this point.

What is worth doing - because otherwise it will lead to endless disputes - is ascertaining once and for all who the tree belongs to. The standard way to work it out when it straddles a boundary is the ownership is where the centre of the trunk is. If the trunk is exactly centred on the boundary you might be in trouble. It could come down to who has historically managed the tree, but at the point where you're arguing about that you'd probably end up getting lawyers involved.

 

[TruXta]

For the council to seriously consider a TPO all they need to know is that it has landscape value and is potentially under threat. That should be enough for the tree officers to consider serving a TPO, once you've asked them to take a look, so I wouldn't spend money on experts at this point.

What is worth doing - because otherwise it will lead to endless disputes - is ascertaining once and for all who the tree belongs to. The standard way to work it out when it straddles a boundary is the ownership is where the centre of the trunk is. If the trunk is exactly centred on the boundary you might be in trouble. It could come down to who has historically managed the tree, but at the point where you're arguing about that you'd probably end up getting lawyers involved.

Thanks. Where along the trunk would one normally measure the centre point? Base or further up?

 

[Brainaddict]

Thanks. Where along the trunk would one normally measure the centre point? Base or further up?

At the base.

Someone has just reminded me that some trees where ownership really isn't clear can end up in essentially shared ownership. But this means permission of *both* owners is needed to work on the tree.

 

[Brainaddict]

I think most people try to avoid the shared ownership conclusion, because while one owner pruning/felling without permission would technically be criminal damage, good luck getting the police interested. So it's basically unenforceable.

 

[teuchter]

Cheers. I haven't seen any plans come through the post yet so unsure if permission has been sought even.

Are you in Lambeth?

Check here

Search planning applications | Lambeth Council

If a planning application is/has been submitted, make sure to mention the tree and its amenity value when you make your comment/objection. If the tree is at the front, and has an impact on the street, then it might be worth getting in touch with whoever the local civic society is (Brixton Society, Herne Hill Society, etc) and asking if they will support you. They can also make comments on planning applications.

 

[TruXta]

At the base.

Someone has just reminded me that some trees where ownership really isn't clear can end up in essentially shared ownership. But this means permission of *both* owners is needed to work on the tree.

Cheers. I think, although I haven't checked thoroughly, that it's ours based on that criterion.

I'd accept a joint ownership solution, mainly because that means I'd never agree to having it felled.

Are you in Lambeth?

Check here

Search planning applications | Lambeth Council

If a planning application is/has been submitted, make sure to mention the tree and its amenity value when you make your comment/objection. If the tree is at the front, and has an impact on the street, then it might be worth getting in touch with whoever the local civic society is (Brixton Society, Herne Hill Society, etc) and asking if they will support you. They can also make comments on planning applications.

Cheers. I'm in Bromley. Good shout on checking in with civic societies.

 

[teuchter]

Simple Search

 

[TruXta]

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[teuchter]

I'd generally be surprised, by the way, if planning permission were granted for an extension at the front of a house, which is what is implied if he wants to cut down a tree at the front.

 

[TruXta]

I'd generally be surprised, by the way, if planning permission were granted for an extension at the front of a house, which is what is implied if he wants to cut down a tree at the front.

It's more to the side of his house, albeit still in front. He's worried about the roots apparently.

E2a my impression is that the extension will also be sideways rather than out front.

 

[teuchter]

As a very rough guide, the area of influence of the roots is often taken to be similar to the spread of the canopy, although it varies according to type of tree.

NB that certain types of extensions (including side extensions, with various limitations) can be done under Permitted Development rights which means that they can be carried out without making a planning application. So keep an eye on what he's up to.

If he wants to do a side extension that comes up to or close to your boundary, he'll need to make a party wall agreement with you, which will give you a certain amount of negotiation leverage (although, again, to an extent, he has a right to to do certain stuff regardless of what you want).

The best way with these things is to try and make sure you talk to each other rather than letting it turn into letter-writing warfare. As you have already said there are various legal rights or wrongs but they only matter if they are likely to actually be enforced. It might be worth saying that you'd be co-operative in allowing him to extend as long as the design of it takes into account your wishes, which would include protecting the tree. It's not unusual to design buildings so that they avoid the root areas of significant trees nearby.

You could always try and point out that the tree has amenity value for both of you...although the type of developer who just wants to cram in rental units might not be inclined to think that way.

 

[TruXta]

Thanks, appreciate the advice.

 

[TruXta]

So, a kind of update. Neighbours have had a survey done, which appears to show that the tree is theirs. Is there any reason not to dispute this? Should I get another one done?

The surveyor told neighbours that

Firstly, we have related our survey to GPS Ordnance Survey Coordinates, the same system that the Ordnance Survey and Land Registry use, surveyed all the boundaries and the tree position at 1.5m above ground as per RICS 1.200 scale surveys specification.

The tree position is shown as a solid circle and the number 1 next to it, we have also surveyed the base of the tree which is shown dashed.



Once the survey was drawn we purchased the OS tile and inserted that into the drawing, it fits very well as they are being regularly updated now, then we purchased and Land Registry title for No.15 as yours is not available as yet, this was scaled and overlaid to match the OS tile.

We have drawn the neighboring title where it sits and you can see the Ordnance survey line passing directly through the picket fence at the front that we have surveyed.



So, in summary the conclusion being that the tree is clearly in your title, the base does go slightly over to next door but the main trunk is in your title

 

[teuchter]

I'd want to see all the drawings. There's loads of scope for fudging things when re-scaling and overlaying drawings that have been drawn to different levels of accuracy.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

TruXta

One thing to be wary about is bastards cutting the tree down on a Sunday or a bank holiday, regardless of preservation orders. Unlike demolished buildings, fully mature trees can't be replaced.

This happened at my old house: there was a black poplar in the back garden of a nearby house. Black poplars are one of the most endangered native trees we have. It was mature, and home to many birds and other creatures. The sound of the wind sussurating through the leaves in summer was not only a lovely background noise but also masked household noises from all the gardens and open windows and back doors. And it was an important sump for water in the area too. So the developer just came in on a Bank Holiday Sunday and chopped it down. I went over there to complain and he basically laughed in my face. His team finished the job on the Monday. He built a horrible extension on the house (the tree wasn't anywhere near the building, it was further down the garden) and filled it with braying incomers who sat on their illegal first floor terrace shouting about rugby and what they did to their girlfriend last night.

And the house he renovated developed some kind of subsidence type problems because of ground heave because there was suddenly a lot more ground water. Several other houses had the same problem. This was right over the Effra so the ground was sometimes saturated.

 

[TruXta]

TruXta

One thing to be wary about is bastards cutting the tree down on a Sunday or a bank holiday, regardless of preservation orders. Unlike demolished buildings, fully mature trees can't be replaced.

This happened at my old house: there was a black poplar in the back garden of a nearby house. Black poplars are one of the most endangered native trees we have. It was mature, and home to many birds and other creatures. The sound of the wind sussurating through the leaves in summer was not only a lovely background noise but also masked household noises from all the gardens and open windows and back doors. And it was an important sump for water in the area too. So the developer just came in on a Bank Holiday Sunday and chopped it down. I went over there to complain and he basically laughed in my face. His team finished the job on the Monday. He built a horrible extension on the house (the tree wasn't anywhere near the building, it was further down the garden) and filled it with braying incomers who sat on their illegal first floor terrace shouting about rugby and what they did to their girlfriend last night.

And the house he renovated developed some kind of subsidence type problems because of ground heave because there was suddenly a lot more ground water. Several other houses had the same problem. This was right over the Effra so the ground was sometimes saturated.

He can't cut it down without entering our property, I imagine that might dissuade him from a drastic course of action. Might...