Footballer Mason Greenwood has rape charges dropped

[agricola]

I don't think the matter can be addressed or judged by employment law . It needs to be addressed on the basis of whether the club want to associate itself with an employee who will always be remembered for rape and domestic violence. Any charity or promotional work around domestic violence or violence against women that the club might wish to do ( and no doubt might as a pang of conscience ) with be ridiculed for hypocrisy. It's a stain that won't go away tbh. We need to call time on domestic violence, most football supporters would, I'm sure agree with that.

I meant employment law more in terms of the examples cited.

In terms of this case, I think a club has the right to make decisions like this based on how it is perceived but (and please don't think this is whataboutery) the hypocrisy argument has already come and gone - Ronaldo (CR7) faced very similar allegations to this at almost the exact same stage in his career and United did nothing about it. The hypocrisy boat has long since sailed at football clubs where players are too important to make an example of - see for example Suarez, or Toney.

 

[The39thStep]

But how can you possibly judge based on a short recording? I don't doubt it's horrific - haven't heard it - but can't be judge jury and executioner on that alone. That's why we have a justice system. I wouldn't expect my employer to take it up themselves.

Presumably people are also aware he is still with the woman and they have since had a child together.

Do you know anything about patterns of domestic violence, the difficulties in prosecution, the high rates of withdrawal of charges, and witnesses refusing to come to court, the average number of assaults and beatings that lead to hospitalisation and at the top end of DV , death?

 

[pbsmooth]

Do you know anything about patterns of domestic violence, the difficulties in prosecution, the high rates of withdrawal of charges, and witnesses refusing to come to court, the average number of assaults and beatings that lead to hospitalisation and at the top end of DV , death?

I think it's better to stay on track and say, do you know anything about this case? No you don't. The police and the club have and will investigate and know far more than some angry Chelsea fan on an Internet board so I'm happy to go with their decision.
Are you just annoyed still because Terry was never sacked by Chelsea when the FA found him guilty of racist abuse?

 

[Sue]

I doubt they could comfortably but it's more about whether they should.

Well a footballer for a famous club where they're trying to project a community image and no doubt encourage their players to meet young fans and do community stuff. I can see why they wouldn't want him to be involved in that.

It's well known.

By whom? It surely shouldn't be.

I think it's interesting information when assessing the whole situation.

Why is it interesting? What do you think it tells us?

Maybe she thinks he's matured and learned from the error of his ways from when he was 18?

Or maybe lots of things, many of them not good.

 

[pbsmooth]

Well a footballer for a famous club where they're trying to project a community image and no doubt encourage their players to meet young fans and do community stuff. I can see why they wouldn't want him to be involved in that.

By whom? It surely shouldn't be.


Why is it interesting? What do you think it tells us?


Or maybe lots of things, many of them not good.

Ultimately do you think you're better placed to decide than the people investigating? That seems crazy to me. But hey they may well still cancel his contract or whatever so let's not get ahead of ourselves.

 

[Raheem]

Ultimately do you think you're better placed to decide than the people investigating?

Fucking obviously, because I'm under no pressure to decide in Greenwood's favour.

 

[agricola]

What's the point of coercive and controlling behaviour if it doesn't coerce or control? Why do you assume she is still with him wholly of her own volition?

Why do we assume she isn't?

I have no idea how their relationship is, but is it really ok if what her actual wishes are (as the victim of this) are disposed of just so a plaything of billionaires can continue to enjoy the support of performative outrage merchants on twitter? I mean if they do make an example of him over this, is she going to see any financial compensation from the club for what their employee did to her?

 

[The39thStep]

I think it's better to stay on track and say, do you know anything about this case? No you don't. The police and the club have and will investigate and know far more than some angry Chelsea fan on an Internet board so I'm happy to go with their decision.
Are you just annoyed still because Terry was never sacked by Chelsea when the FA found him guilty of racist abuse?

Grow up pal. Doesnt matter if I support Chelsea, Chelmsford or Cheltenham . What I don't support is domestic violence and apologists for it. Ive made hard decisions in my life when I have known 'mates' who have battered women they've been in a relationship with and I have no time for abusers.

Do I know about the case? I've heard the tape, seen the transcript and seen the photos the victim put out on social media . What else would you like me to post up?

 

[Petcha]

Ultimately do you think you're better placed to decide than the people investigating? That seems crazy to me. But hey they may well still cancel his contract or whatever so let's not get ahead of ourselves.

The cops investigating thought there was enough there to do put it in front of the CPS, which in itself says a lot. Then the girl decided not to press ahead. And again, if a jury heard that recording I can't see how he would get off. It's pretty damning.

He'll bear the brunt of chants for the rest of his career at away games but that's that I guess. And the fucker's been on full pay throughout this whole thing. Well played son.

 

[Serge Forward]

It's going to depend on how well he plays, if he plays well then the Man U fans are going to forgive him. If he plays badly then accusations of rape will be hurled at him constantly. It's a safe bet that Non Man-U fans are going to rub his face in it every time he comes out of the tunnel. How long he and Man U can turn a blind eye/ear to that will be interesting.

Over-generalising there somewhat. Back in the day, there'd be little question he would have got a rough ride at United. Since the Glazers took over and a sizeable chunk of the more principled supporters went to FCUM, then I'd expect the response to now be more mixed. There are still quite a few principled United supporters you know.

By the way, your repeated use of the expression "Man U" in your comment makes you sound quite unpleasant. Man Utd or Manchester United (if you're not ino the whole brevity thing) will do fine.

 

[Petcha]

The transcript is not nice to read. Removed from here though.

 

[Gromit]

The tape recording alone is enough I feel for the club to drop him for bringing the club into disrepute.

I've heard people say everyone makes mistakes, he's learnt his lesson.

Without punishment from somewhere I believe the only lesson he'll learn is that he can do as he pleases and get away with it.

He's faced no real consequences as yet other than the same amount of time off the pitch that an injury could have caused.

 

[Raheem]

Transcript here

Along with the identity of the victim. Just thought I'd mention that.

 

[Petcha]

Along with the identity of the victim. Just thought I'd mention that.

Her first name?

Ok, i'll remove it. But I hardly think that's identifying her.

edit: apologies, you're right, that link did identify her. Removed.

 

[Raheem]

Her first name?

Ok, i'll remove it. But I hardly think that's identifying her.

It has her full name and her picture. Not that I'm blaming you or anything.

 

[The39thStep]

Speaks for itself

 

[Pickman's model]

By the way, your repeated use of the expression "Man U" in your comment makes you sound quite unpleasant. Man Utd or Manchester United (if you're not ino the whole brevity thing) will do fine.

Strange, never seen this before especially when United fans here as in real life also refer to the club as man u on occasion

 

[newme]

Strange, never seen this before especially when United fans here as in real life also refer to the club as man u on occasion

Yeh am one of those and its always been united or man u. Not sure what they are on about.
Also I don't want Greenwood back here playing, footballing wise we could certainly do with him but just no.

 

[Petcha]

Yeh am one of those and its always been united or man u. Not sure what they are on about.
Also I don't want Greenwood back here playing, footballing wise we could certainly do with him but just no.

According to this it's the actual footballing side of the organisation that want him back. The operational/corporate side do not.

Some Manchester United staff feel deep shame at prospect of Greenwood return

Manchester United staff expect Mason Greenwood to be retained by the club and are divided over that prospect

www.theguardian.com

 

[ska invita]

Why certain footballers with all that fame and money resort to rape is beyond me other than the fact that they must be a bunch of cunts

It's an interesting question... My impression is:

Massively wealthy young men, often taken out of real life very young and contained in an all male 'academy' environment, in which their egos are allowed to balloon, plus I gather clubs themselves supply sex workers on tap for their squads, with players at times (regularly by all accounts) engaging in mass group sex as some kind of bonding ritual encouraged by the club... There's also the phenomenon of 'goaldiggers'...
It's all very fucked up... Added together creates a massive power trip for the footballers

I wish I hadn't seen Dele Ali's leaked sex tape (blow job from a paid woman in the company of other spurs players iirc)... He looks uncomfortable...add in now what we know about his childhood abuse and it all paints a snapshot picture of what to me at least is a horrible power hierarchy sex culture running through big money football... Another reason to be disgusted by it all. I appreciate some people may think this is all fine.

 

[newme]

According to this it's the actual footballing side of the organisation that want him back. The operational/corporate side do not.

Some Manchester United staff feel deep shame at prospect of Greenwood return

Manchester United staff expect Mason Greenwood to be retained by the club and are divided over that prospect

www.theguardian.com

Well yeh makes sense really, from a football only perspective, he was good and is a young player. We just paid for Højlund who is reasonably similar age and a forward when we have barely any useful ones and Martial is less useful as a backup plus we still have no one to fill in on the right wing.

Corporately he is a huge liability to reputation which means cashflow and advertising, bet they would happily take what we just paid for Højlund to get him shifted tho but no one is paying that. Can't cancel the contract so stuck with him unless someone else takes him. I see a loan happening for them to test the waters of how fucked it makes the other teams reputation look and get wages off the books for a season, then reassessing/selling/more loans til they get cash for him to leave/its judged they can offset the reputation loss v him being on form, or various deals having just renewed. It is not pleasant maths.

 

[MickiQ]

By the way, your repeated use of the expression "Man U" in your comment makes you sound quite unpleasant.

Why?

 

[Petcha]

Well yeh makes sense really, from a football only perspective, he was good and is a young player. We just paid for Højlund who is reasonably similar age and a forward when we have barely any useful ones and Martial is less useful as a backup plus we still have no one to fill in on the right wing.

Corporately he is a huge liability to reputation which means cashflow and advertising, bet they would happily take what we just paid for Højlund to get him shifted tho but no one is paying that. Can't cancel the contract so stuck with him unless someone else takes him. I see a loan happening for them to test the waters of how fucked it makes the other teams reputation look and get wages off the books for a season, then reassessing/selling/more loans til they get cash for him to leave/its judged they can offset the reputation loss v him being on form, or various deals having just renewed. It is not pleasant maths.

Yeh. I can't see sponsors willing to have their logo plastered across the front of a shirt with 'Greenwood' on the back. I assume the age they're taking over this is finding someone to buy him/loan him out to until 2025 when his contract's up.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

Strange, never seen this before especially when United fans here as in real life also refer to the club as man u on occasion

I have heard this before. Apparently it's because some other clubs have used Man U in some Munich related chants.

I've also seen it explained that it comes from the phrase

Man
U
Never
Intended
Coming
Home

I'm sure we can all spot why that doesn't make sense

 

[pbsmooth]

'Man U' became seen as what the nu-footie glory-hunters (often southerners) used so the proper United fans stopped using it. This is a sort of 90s, post-PL thing, led by some of the fanzines at the time. I think 'Man U' was less controversial (but probably less common) in 80s and earlier.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Well yeh makes sense really, from a football only perspective, he was good and is a young player. We just paid for Højlund who is reasonably similar age and a forward when we have barely any useful ones and Martial is less useful as a backup plus we still have no one to fill in on the right wing.

I think that's part of it, although surely the corporate part of the business would also recognise his value to the team and therefore to the main objective of everyone at the club - profit, the pursuit of more money.

But turning back to 'football' and how it perceives things. There does seem to be a widespread view in football that if a colleague is not convicted for their actions then they have done nothing wrong. See the recent outpouring of a particular form of solidarity for Benjamin Mendy from football. For those supporting Mendy the view seemed to be that as long as he wasn't convicted then he was innocent. The same logic seems to be at work here. What Greenwood did or did not do is secondary to whether or not he got done for it.

For those foregrounding 'second chances' and the need for a duty of care/rehabilitation (both legitimate impulses) the problem seems to be that the starting point is not regret, contrition, learning but merely that Greenwood wasn't charged.

 

[savoloysam]

According to this it's the actual footballing side of the organisation that want him back. The operational/corporate side do not.

Some Manchester United staff feel deep shame at prospect of Greenwood return

Manchester United staff expect Mason Greenwood to be retained by the club and are divided over that prospect

www.theguardian.com

Let's hope they exercise some clout then. The only problem with that is I bet another club will take him on.

 

[Elpenor]

Ulster rugby had a similar case involving them a few years ago. Their star fly half was involved, and I think he was acquitted of rape but then released from his contract by the club. Players are centrally contracted by the national union, so this meant the player couldn’t get a rugby contract in Ireland.

Despite protests from some fans he went to a French club, and then to London Irish, a team in the English league, again with protests, and now he is back in France I think.

Don’t a lot of disgraced footballers go to Turkey for contracts?

 

[BristolEcho]

It's an interesting question... My impression is:

Massively wealthy young men, often taken out of real life very young and contained in an all male 'academy' environment, in which their egos are allowed to balloon, plus I gather clubs themselves supply sex workers on tap for their squads, with players at times (regularly by all accounts) engaging in mass group sex as some kind of bonding ritual encouraged by the club... There's also the phenomenon of 'goaldiggers'...
It's all very fucked up... Added together creates a massive power trip for the footballers

I wish I hadn't seen Dele Ali's leaked sex tape (blow job from a paid woman in the company of other spurs players iirc)... He looks uncomfortable...add in now what we know about his childhood abuse and it all paints a snapshot picture of what to me at least is a horrible power hierarchy sex culture running through big money football... Another reason to be disgusted by it all. I appreciate some people may think this is all fine.

Have you got any links to the football clubs hiring sex workers thing? Not something Ive come across before.

 

[The39thStep]

Have you got any links to the football clubs hiring sex workers thing? Not something Ive come across before.

Mexico squad did before one world cup