Extinction Rebellion

[littlebabyjesus]

Yeah it matters where your money comes from. One of XR's many problems.

 

[8ball]

Yeah it matters where your money comes from. One of XR's many problems.

Those problems are certainly mounting up.

If I was a mega-rich part-owner of torture camps and airports, a few pennies bunged in the direction of any group trying to hold me to account might be quite a wheeze.

 

[redcogs]

it sounds a bit like the catholic church holding shares in birth control, tobacco, and defence companies?

 

[8ball]

it sounds a bit like the catholic church holding shares in birth control, tobacco, and defence companies?

I think it's more like those companies making donations to the Catholic Church.

 

[pug]

margaret thatcher supported pol pot

 

[8ball]

margaret thatcher supported pol pot

And such a pillar of the community she was...

 

[Mr.Bishie]

.

 

[Chilli.s]

Range Rover dealerships, perfect for a protest...

 

[8ball]

Range Rover dealerships, perfect for a protest...

Any reason why particularly them and particularly now?

 

[Chilli.s]

Any reason why particularly them and particularly now?

They are self indulgent uneconomical cars about as far from public transport as it's possible to get.

 

[Pickman's model]

Load of people up for s14 from the first XR, some of them pleading guilty

Too many supporters have turned up for the number of chairs

 

[LDC]

They are self indulgent uneconomical cars about as far from public transport as it's possible to get.

But I thought one of the more interesting things about XR was a move away from that kinda protest thing where it looks like you're just asking people to choose a 'better' car?

This popped up yesterday, worth a read Dear XR, why not be more honest with your participants? — Why Social Movements Matter

 

[8ball]

They are self indulgent uneconomical cars about as far from public transport as it's possible to get.

It's good that all the other producers of such products have been dealt with.

 

[Chilli.s]

But I thought one of the more interesting things about XR was a move away from that kinda protest thing where it looks like you're just asking people to choose a 'better' car?

This popped up yesterday, worth a read Dear XR, why not be more honest with your participants? — Why Social Movements Matter

Well perhaps. Maybe less troublesome than the tube. The thing with expensive cars is that they are a status symbol. I'd tax them as such but that's a different story.

That's a long read but has some sense in it.

 

[8ball]

Well perhaps. Maybe less troublesome than the tube. The thing with expensive cars is that they are a status symbol. I'd tax them as such but that's a different story.

Is there a special "status symbol" tax?

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Thread. What to make of all this then?

 

[Chilli.s]

Is there a special "status symbol" tax?

Not yet, what do you think? I like it as an idea.

 

[8ball]

Not yet, what do you think? I like it as an idea.

A lot of people liked the idea of age-limiting dodgy (or just adult) internet content.
I think this idea has similar surface appeal and falls apart equally as quickly.

Some places have "luxury taxes" which I think has more coherence (and might be kind of what you have in mind - maybe I'm taking the terms over-literally).

 

[Chilli.s]

"luxury taxes"

Yeah that's it. The product remains a status symbol but the rich pay an extraordinary amount to be flash.

 

[8ball]

Yeah that's it. The product remains a status symbol but the rich pay an extraordinary amount to be flash.

The "luxury tax" concept has some overlap with the "sin tax" concept (see beer/fags etc.).
Except that certain status symbols are such because only certain people can afford them, and hence pay over the odds for them, just to show they can. Smokers, on the other hand, would love fags to be cheaper.

Would be interesting to see how it would pan out, the main “usage reduction” mechanic would be borked, and you might actually have a pressure in the direction of increased use. Plus other effects based on what market bracket you push the goods into.

If you want to optimally reduce usage you could look at pushing the prices of specific goods into price categories where the usual buyers think that particular thing is hopelessly naff.

<ponders>

One good thing is that you will have some dosh for the treasury, but being able to see the rich has some utility too, so many of them go round in disguise as it is.

 

[Libertad]

Conspicuous consumption cunts, tax them triple and then torch their cars.

 

[WouldBe]

They are self indulgent uneconomical cars about as far from public transport as it's possible to get.

Apart from being the size of a bus.

 

[Chilli.s]

Conspicuous consumption cunts, tax them triple and then torch their cars.

Hold on there! not torched, "community recycled" stripped down and sold through the back door to the workers who have to fix the damn things when they go wrong. Win win!

 

[bluescreen]

Luxury goods tax - not a new idea.

Between 1940 and 1973, the main consumption tax in the UK, the Purchase Tax, had a class bias in favour of workers, not owners. It was levied only on luxury goods, at a rate of just over 33%. The stated goal of this tax, which originated in war-time, was to reduce the wastage of raw materials and redirect resources into the war economy. In 1973 the Purchase Tax was replaced by VAT, then levied at 8%; this represented a massive shift in the burden of indirect taxation from wealthy individuals to ordinary workers and the poor. VAT now stands at 20%, effectively cancelling out the gains to low-wage workers from the tax-free threshold on income tax. Primary responsibility for raising rates of VAT rests with Conservative governments, but Labour governments have consistently failed to reduce, much less abolish it.

The article then goes on to argue for a new luxury goods tax.
Towards a Luxury Goods Tax

 

[Chilli.s]

Luxury goods tax - not a new idea.
The article then goes on to argue for a new luxury goods tax.
Towards a Luxury Goods Tax

That's it, vat taxes the poor on the stuff they need and the rich too but as a proportion of the 2 groups incomes the poor pay more. Rich always need to show off and at a certain level can have anything they want and will still buy it no matter what the cost.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Good piece from John Warwick, which exposes Hallem’s crap, & touches on what Pickman's model was saying about a diversity of tactics has to be the way forward.

No, Extinction Rebels, nonviolence is not the only way

 

[Marty1]

Hmm, I wonder if Jeff Bezos is a secret XR donor?

 

[redcogs]

Good piece from John Warwick, which exposes Hallem’s crap, & touches on what Pickman's model was saying about a diversity of tactics has to be the way forward.

No, Extinction Rebels, nonviolence is not the only way

Nothing to disagree with in John's piece. As suggested, XR are new, burgeoning, and prone to the mistakes that infants might make as they are developing. Roger H has displayed some outstanding upside qualities (energy, courage, self sacrifice, and putting money where mouth is), but the neg ones are troubling. Internal democracy needs enhancing. and don't forget the man remains a political prisoner.

 

[Marty1]

Yeah that's it. The product remains a status symbol but the rich pay an extraordinary amount to be flash.

Very true.

 

[Gramsci]

But I thought one of the more interesting things about XR was a move away from that kinda protest thing where it looks like you're just asking people to choose a 'better' car?

This popped up yesterday, worth a read Dear XR, why not be more honest with your participants? — Why Social Movements Matter

A few comments on the article :

• Underlying the whole article is why didn't XR ask me about their strategy as I'm an academic whose written books. I found this irritating.

• On the "tyranny of structurelessness " he is right.

• That XR is just a southern England based organisaton is just wrong.

• There is now more debate. See posts about XR Scotland which openly criticise leading lights of XR. Have to see how that goes.

• On XR attitude to police showing that they don't understand the nature of the state I think he is wrong. XR official line is that so called parliamentary democracy is in hock to big vested interests. Why the call for mass civil disobedience. So XR do see the present State as a problem. My talks with XR on the ground is that they don't want to blame individual police who are just ordinary people caught in the crossfire so to speak. This still is questionable. But XR do have a criticism of the State. ( Though rank and file XR don't always get this I think. They think XR is like a pressure group. As one said to me she wants to get a message through to Boris).

On his discussion of SWP. That XR could become like a sectarian organisation. The Only Way is XR. I do think there is something in that.

Well I know SWP in my area. The SWP is quite strong but has members who been in it a long time. So not everyone burns out.

I'm involved in a couple of community campaigns. Which can grind one down. A friend gave up on that and joined XR as it seemed more like doing something.

I also think that XR , unlike SWP, do try to care about the member welfare. I've seen well being tents at XR demos. Not something the hard left does.

So whilst the writer of the article is right about some things I think this is a harsh outsiders view.

The writer of the article is an academic who luckily can combine being an academic with activism.

I personally would like to see the word activist ditched.

Most people who are socially concerned and do a bit ( I include myself in that) aren't full time activists. Unlike the writer of the article most people aren't going to be able to do that.