Entirely unashamed anti car propaganda, and the more the better.

[Athos]

So to summarise:

• you don't know the area
• you don't know the specifics of the proposals
• you don't have any specific alternatives to propose
• your opinion that freedoms are being radically curtailed is based on media reports that some people there are unhappy.

Points 1 and 2 are correct.

With regard to point 3, I did set out what I'd prefer.

With regard to point 4, that's not entirely true. I've read some of the press reporting, but I've also spoken to a colleague who lives in Oxford; she said that many locals are up in arms.

 

[teuchter]

With regard to point 3, I did set out what I'd prefer.

Not in any specific terms.

Making broad statements is easy; actually coming up with something that can be implemented in the real world is very difficult. The kinds of schemes that are being promoted just now are based on decades of experience of what works and what doesn't work. And of what can actually be made to happen politically. If it were possible to convince people that they pay higher taxes in order to fund public transport systems that were so good, they simply wouldn't want to use the car they've already invested in, it would be happening everywhere.

 

[platinumsage]

The kinds of schemes that are being promoted just now are based on decades of experience of what works and what doesn't work. And of what can actually be made to happen politically.

Absolutely nonsense. No council officers at at Oxford or Cambridge have any experience of the kind of schemes they are proposing, and if both of the schemes are actually implemented without major climb-down revisions I'll donate £10 to the server fund.

 

[teuchter]

Absolutely nonsense. No council officers at at Oxford or Cambridge have any experience of the kind of schemes they are proposing, and if both of the schemes are actually implemented without major climb-down revisions I'll donate £10 to the server fund.

What's being proposed in Cambridge then?

 

[Athos]

Not in any specific terms.

Making broad statements is easy; actually coming up with something that can be implemented in the real world is very difficult. The kinds of schemes that are being promoted just now are based on decades of experience of what works and what doesn't work. And of what can actually be made to happen politically. If it were possible to convince people that they pay higher taxes in order to fund public transport systems that were so good, they simply wouldn't want to use the car they've already invested in, it would be happening everywhere.

My issue isn't with the efficacy; I'm sure those measures will reduce the number of cars in the city centre.

My issue is with the principle of the state imposing measures to curtail existing freedoms, thereby degrading the quality of life of many people, without a sufficient mandate.

It's on that basis that I'd rather they did other things, notwithstanding that they might be less effective at reducing the number of cars in the city (an aim with which I agree).

 

[platinumsage]

What's being proposed in Cambridge then?

A £5 congestion charge zone, covering the entire city right up to the furthest suburbs, and offering no discount for residents (or motor scooters for that matter).

 

[teuchter]

My issue isn't with the efficacy; I'm sure those measures will reduce the number of cars in the city centre.

My issue is with the principle of the state imposing measures to curtail existing freedoms without a sufficient mandate.

It's on that basis that I'd rather they did other things, notwithstanding that they might be less effective at reducing the number of cars in the city (an aim with which I agree).

Yes, we are clear you'd rather they did "other things". You can tell us what you want the end result to be but you have zero proposals for how to get there.

I would like the war in Ukraine to stop. How should that happen? Oh, they should just do "other things" instead of fighting.

 

[liquidindian]

principle of the state imposing measures to curtail existing freedoms without a sufficient mandate

I understand it starts when they create your legal person with your birth certificate.

 

[Athos]

Yes, we are clear you'd rather they did "other things". You can tell us what you want the end result to be but you have zero proposals for how to get there.

I would like the war in Ukraine to stop. How should that happen? Oh, they should just do "other things" instead of fighting.

I have set out some of those things - the sort of incentives I'd like to see. I appreciate they're not perfect, but, to me, they're better than the alternatives - the status quo, or the proposed measures in Oxford.

 

[Athos]

I understand it starts when they create your legal person with your birth certificate.

Yes, because only a FOTL loon could care about undemocratic actions of an over-bearing state.

 

[liquidindian]

over-bearing state

It's some minor traffic changes, not a one-child policy.

 

[platinumsage]

It's some minor traffic changes, not a one-child policy.

Minor for whom? I'm sure if some footpaths were stopped up, the effect of which was to add half an hour's walk to your daily journey (albeit this could be ameliorated by hopping in a car), you'd be suitably disgruntled.

 

[Athos]

It's some minor traffic changes, not a one-child policy.

Clearly, it's not minor to those affected.

 

[liquidindian]

You've made the mistake of thinking the amount people whine and complain is in proportion to the amount they are inconvenienced.

 

[Athos]

You've made the mistake of thinking the amount people whine and complain is in proportion to the amount they are inconvenienced.

Or maybe you lack empathy.

 

[liquidindian]

Or maybe you lack empathy.

I'm sorry it angers you that some people think differently from you.

 

[Athos]

I'm sorry it angers you that some people think differently from you.

It doesn't at all.

 

[maomao]

Yes, we are clear you'd rather they did "other things". You can tell us what you want the end result to be but you have zero proposals for how to get there.

I would like the war in Ukraine to stop. How should that happen? Oh, they should just do "other things" instead of fighting.

It's the 'argument to moderation' logical fallacy. A reasonable middle path is claimed where none is possible and the status quo remains unchallenged.

 

[Athos]

It's the 'argument to moderation' logical fallacy. A reasonable middle path is claimed where none is possible and the status quo remains unchallenged.

What is the logical reason that incentivising reduced car use must fail?

 

[platinumsage]

Enjoy this stunning anti-Cambridge-congestion-charge propoganda poem off of Facebook.

Surely car abolitionists can come up with something like this? I look forward to reading attempts on this thread.

Feeling lost and slightly down
With what they plan for our old town
Close the roads and slow the lights
Road works reaching untold heights
Bus lanes causing so much pain
Traffic Jams are here again
Roundabouts and cycle paths
Slow us down and no one laughs
All the shops are closing too
Leaders who are just not true
Lies and lies no information
Pretty words on consultation
Leaflets posted through our door
Five quid a day won’t hit the poor
Cleaner air the council cry
Scores of buses that’s a lie
Five pounds ain’t so much to pay
And once you’re in you stay all day
And please don’t go to to A and E
Cos even then there’ll be a fee
And what of Nan she’s on her own
She can’t go shopping all alone
She needs a car to carry food
Her legs don’t work a bus is crude
But it’s ok the rich don’t care
We’ll watch them driving everywhere
Not for them the freezing bus
And my Nan she won’t make a fuss.
She’s 92 can hardly walk
The GCP to her don’t talk
Go online is what they say
She bought an smart phone yesterday
She tried for hours is what she said
Eventually the phone went dead
No filling in the consultation
The disenfranchised generation
It’s so unfair this lib lab con
The fight we’re in it must be won

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Fuck me sideways

 

[Elpenor]

I hope that’s been submitted to the local paper

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Cars are shit
That’s pretty much it
You say you’ve lost all of your rights
But you’re just a bunch of awful shites

 

[sleaterkinney]

I thought the loons in London were bad, but that poem is up there.

 

[sleaterkinney]

What is the logical reason that incentivising reduced car use must fail?

Why not use a stick instead of a carrot?. The problem is serious enough. Do you agree with the smoking ban?.

 

[Athos]

Why not use a stick instead of a carrot?. The problem is serious enough. Do you agree with the smoking ban?.

Surely the reasons to be wary of governments imposing coercive measures that don't have wide support are obvious?

I didn't support the smoking ban. But even that had wider public support, the inconvenience was less, and people don't need to smoke in the same way they need to travel to work, hospital, etc.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Surely the reasons to be wary of governments imposing coercive measures that don't have wide support are obvious?

I didn't support the smoking ban. But even that had wider public support, the inconvenience was less, and people don't need to smoke in the same way they need to travel to work, hospital, etc.

Where traffic measures have been introduced in London they've proven to be popular with voters.

It's not imposing coercive measures, it's traffic management which govts do all the time.

The smoking ban did curtail people's freedoms for the general good, we're actually not doing anything like enough for the environment.

 

[edcraw]

Enjoy this stunning anti-Cambridge-congestion-charge propoganda poem off of Facebook.

Surely car abolitionists can come up with something like this? I look forward to reading attempts on this thread.

Feeling lost and slightly down
With what they plan for our old town
Close the roads and slow the lights
Road works reaching untold heights
Bus lanes causing so much pain
Traffic Jams are here again
Roundabouts and cycle paths
Slow us down and no one laughs
All the shops are closing too
Leaders who are just not true
Lies and lies no information
Pretty words on consultation
Leaflets posted through our door
Five quid a day won’t hit the poor
Cleaner air the council cry
Scores of buses that’s a lie
Five pounds ain’t so much to pay
And once you’re in you stay all day
And please don’t go to to A and E
Cos even then there’ll be a fee
And what of Nan she’s on her own
She can’t go shopping all alone
She needs a car to carry food
Her legs don’t work a bus is crude
But it’s ok the rich don’t care
We’ll watch them driving everywhere
Not for them the freezing bus
And my Nan she won’t make a fuss.
She’s 92 can hardly walk
The GCP to her don’t talk
Go online is what they say
She bought an smart phone yesterday
She tried for hours is what she said
Eventually the phone went dead
No filling in the consultation
The disenfranchised generation
It’s so unfair this lib lab con
The fight we’re in it must be won

Must be true that air pollution is worse inside cars then.

 

[Artaxerxes]

Cars are shit
That’s pretty much it
You say you’ve lost all of your rights
But you’re just a bunch of awful shites

How is my pensioner pregnant disabled wife going to carry her fridge back from work every day without a car? Answer me that chairman fucking Mao

 

[edcraw]

Fuck me, there are a lot of very thick drivers out there.