Dowsing

[joustmaster]

What still is coming across... is the condensation and hate. I can empathise a bit... but why would you waste your time debunking something that is of no consequence to you?
If someone started a thread about jews ruling the earth from the other side of the moon ... i might post like one bit of ridicule.. but really why bother engaging? What are your motives ?

I'm sure there's no negative consequence for you.
But a lot of people get taken advantage of by peddlers of such nonsense and some people end up ill or broke. From homeopathy, mediums, ear candling, reiki, and all that other shite.

 

[Ralph Llama]

I'm sure there's no negative consequence for you.
But a lot of people get taken advantage of by peddlers of such nonsense and some people end up ill or broke. From homeopathy, mediums, ear candling, reiki, and all that other shite.

Absolutely ! I fucking hate yoghurt weaving corporate hippy bullshit !
I`m not talking homeopathy here... i`m talking about traditional medicine which is more lore than science... but don`t throw the baby out with the bathwater !

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

I don`t think you understand medicine ... or science ...

“Clinical efficacy of milk thistle is not clearly established”

Shall we start there?

 

[joustmaster]

I don`t think you understand medicine ... or science ...

The link you shared for milk thistle claims the opposite of what you said.

 

[joustmaster]

"milk thistle is promoted on the internet for its claimed ability to slow certain kinds of cancer, but that there is no good evidence in support of these claims"

"It questioned the beneficial effects and highlighted the lack of high-quality evidence"

"clinical study results were described as heterogeneous and contradictory"

 

[DotCommunist]

I know one traditional medicine that promotes a healthy appetite, a relaxed mind and makes you good at computer games. The Man hates it so much, he once fined me for possession with intent to sell.

 

[Ralph Llama]

"milk thistle is promoted on the internet for its claimed ability to slow certain kinds of cancer, but that there is no good evidence in support of these claims"

"It questioned the beneficial effects and highlighted the lack of high-quality evidence"

"clinical study results were described as heterogeneous and contradictory"

That is obviously bullshit. I don`t believe that it even repairs the liver.... it flushes it when combined with.. say dandelion (diuretic). Cunts out there will prey on the weak... don`t throw the baby out !

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

I know one traditional medicine that promotes a healthy appetite, a relaxed mind and makes you good at computer games. The Man hates it so much, he once fined me for possession with intent to sell.

 

[Mrs Miggins]

I seem to remember someone once suggesting taking milk thistle for hangovers....there wasn't enough milk thistle in every UK Holland & Barrat store to tackle one of my hangovers. But that may be a different issue.

Alka Seltzer and Barrocca and a bacon sandwich. That's my tried and trusted remedy.

I am aware I am just talking to myself now

 

[Ralph Llama]

To be honest... it doesn`t make me good at computer games... cant remember where the fuck i`m meant to be going/doing.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

I don`t believe that it even repairs the liver.... it flushes it

Please define this “flushing” process.

 

[Ralph Llama]

I seem to remember someone once suggesting taking milk thistle for hangovers....there wasn't enough milk thistle in every UK Holland & Barrat store to tackle one of my hangovers. But that may be a different issue.

Alka Seltzer and Barrocca and a bacon sandwich. That's my tried and trusted remedy.

I am aware I am just talking to myself now

It is pretty good at flushing out the liver.... but personally Valium and spliffs/ or sweating it out work for me.

 

[Ralph Llama]

Please define this “flushing” process.

I don`t know how it does it... but i will have a look now.

 

[gentlegreen]

liver.... flush

"Detox" ?

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

I don`t know how it does it... but i will have a look now.

Hint: It doesn’t.

Your liver is a remarkable organ that can repair itself. You can reduce a liver to something like 25% of its original size and it will entirely regenerate. “Detoxing”, “cleansing” or anything else is entirely unnecessary and are terms existing merely to sell dietary supplements and snake oil.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

Getting back to dowsing...

Everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that civil engineers have had and still have no problem with it as a preliminary marker...and have explained it as similar to the gold spectrometer test. I bet people thought that static electricity was woo woo until it was fully understood too.

"The divining rod is performing a similar function to the gold leaf electroscope used during school physics to demonstrate electrostatic effects. The charges on the rods cause a response in relation to the charges on the object. Like charges repel and opposite charges attract to influence the alignment that the rods are trying to take up. It was noted that if the dowser removed his or her shoes, their sensitivity often increased, indicating the importance of electrical continuity with the ground."
Again...from The New Civil Engineer publication.
Locating underground features by dowsing


And have a read of his too..

In defence of dowsing to detect water | Letters


The Munich experiment was a failure for the dowserd ...bar one who had remarkable success rate.
Even the researchers stated this..
"Some few dowsers, in particular tasks, showed an extraordinarily high rate of success, which can scarcely if at all be explained as due to chance ... a real core of dowser-phenomena can be regarded as empirically proven ... (5)"

And most dowserd did not do particularly well in the experiment. However one did better than odds.



The researchers and dowserd couldn't explain failures. But it was not a natural setting and this may have impacted on the test. There was no rock, soil or ground. The test was carried out in the ground floor of a barn...and dowsers were tested one the first floor... just air between the two levels.

As such, the setting was not a good replica of a natural setting....which is ordinarily out of doors...involves moving over earth, stone, metals, minerals and water and other materials that may carry an electric charge.

Many things we accept and understand and use in modern life were at one stage not understood or recognised and indeed were thought to have been woo woo.

Dowsing is something that is not completely worked out but just because it's not fully understood does not mean it is rubbish or doesn't work.

Slightly off topic ... but the use of bed sting venom is only now being used in western medicine for arthritis and inflammatory conditions.....
Bee stings have long been known to help with arthritis. I mentioned earlier in the thread that my grandad kept bees and that people with arthristis used to visit just for the bee stings....to help relieve pain..

I'm going to just leave this now because believe it or not I do respect science and I am very interested in theoretical physics but I am not someone who dismisses something that has a huge amount of anecdotal success because of one failed test.
It just shows that the test did not replicate natural conditions. What is needed is a Full test to be carried out in natural conditions (outdoors with groundwater) ...
I know quite a few civil engineers and architects and none of them would dismiss dowsing because they have experienced it working....successfully.
It's not woo woo or magic...it is described as similar to the gold spectronomer test. ...

Although....
It would be interesting to see a robot carry the rods over an area ...to see if the rods move.

 

[Mrs Miggins]

Hint: It doesn’t.

Your liver is a remarkable organ that can repair itself. You can reduce a liver to something like 25% of its original size and it will entirely regenerate.

So livers are a bit like a bargain basement Dr Who? Awesome

 

[Ralph Llama]

Hint: It doesn’t.

Your liver is a remarkable organ that can repair itself. You can reduce a liver to something like 25% of its original size and it will entirely regenerate. “Detoxing”, “cleansing” or anything else is entirely unnecessary and are terms existing merely to sell dietary supplements and snake oil.

Ok, this covers it.

Publisher Summary
This chapter appraises the therapeutic properties of milk thistle seeds. Milk thistle seeds' therapeutic and health-promoting efficacy involves a variety of molecular mechanisms. Its primary activities are as an antioxidant and a hepatoprotective. The seeds also contain other flavonolignans, betaine, apigenin, silybonol, proteins, fixed oil, and free fatty acids, which may contribute to the health-giving effects of milk thistle seeds. Silymarin is used for the treatment of several liver diseases characterized by degenerative necrosis and functional impairment, including chronic liver disorders. It successfully opposes alcoholic cirrhosis, with its antioxidant and hepatoprotective mechanisms restoring the normal liver biochemical parameters. However, human studies on the management of alcoholic cirrhosis and hepatitis are equivocal. In patients with acute viral hepatitis, silymarin shortens the treatment time and shows improvement in serum bilirubin and serum liver enzymatic levels. Silymarin stimulates liver tissue regeneration by increasing protein synthesis in the injured liver. Milk thistle seed demonstrates anti-inflammatory, immunomodulatory, lipid, and biliary effects. It also has antiviral, antitumor, and other health-beneficiary properties. Its preparations are safe, well tolerated, and cause no serious side effects in humans, although there may be mild gastrointestinal and allergic reactions. More research is warranted to validate its wide range of health-promoting effects.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/B9780123756886100908

 

[Mrs Miggins]

Getting back to dowsing...

Everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that civil engineers have had and still have no problem with it as a preliminary marker...and have explained it as similar to the gold spectrometer test. I bet people thought that static electricity was woo woo until it was fully understood too.

"The divining rod is performing a similar function to the gold leaf electroscope used during school physics to demonstrate electrostatic effects. The charges on the rods cause a response in relation to the charges on the object. Like charges repel and opposite charges attract to influence the alignment that the rods are trying to take up. It was noted that if the dowser removed his or her shoes, their sensitivity often increased, indicating the importance of electrical continuity with the ground."
Again...from The New Civil Engineer publication.
Locating underground features by dowsing


And have a read of his too..

In defence of dowsing to detect water | Letters


The Munich experiment was a failure for the dowserd ...bar one who had remarkable success rate.
Even the researchers stated this..
"Some few dowsers, in particular tasks, showed an extraordinarily high rate of success, which can scarcely if at all be explained as due to chance ... a real core of dowser-phenomena can be regarded as empirically proven ... (5)"

And most dowserd did not do particularly well in the experiment. However one did better than odds.

View attachment 132226

The researchers and dowserd couldn't explain failures. But it was not a natural setting and this may have impacted on the test. There was no rock, soil or ground. The test was carried out in the ground floor of a barn...and dowsers were tested one the first floor... just air between the two levels.

As such, the setting was not a good replica of a natural setting....which is ordinarily out of doors...involves moving over earth, stone, metals, minerals and water and other materials that may carry an electric charge.

Many things we accept and understand and use in modern life were at one stage not understood or recognised and indeed were thought to have been woo woo.

Dowsing is something that is not completely worked out but just because it's not fully understood does not mean it is rubbish or doesn't work.

Slightly off topic ... but the use of bed sting venom is only now being used in western medicine for arthritis and inflammatory conditions.....
Bee stings have long been known to help with arthritis. I mentioned earlier in the thread that my grandad kept bees and that people with arthristis used to visit just for the bee stings....to help relieve pain..

I'm going to just leave this now because believe it or not I do respect science and I am very interested in theoretical physics but I am not someone who dismisses something that has a huge amount of anecdotal success because of one failed test.
It just shows that the test did not replicate natural conditions. What is needed is a Full test to be carried out in natural conditions (outdoors with groundwater) ...
I know quite a few civil engineers and architects and none of them would dismiss dowsing because they have experienced it working....successfully.
It's not woo woo or magic...it is described as similar to the gold spectronomer test. ...

Although....
It would be interesting to see a robot carry the rods over an area ...to see if the rods move.

I think you are entirely reasonable. You have strong anecdotal evidence that you believe and I think everyone on this thread would respect any actual evidence that dowsing works.

The beesting stuff...well yes...that's a great thing when "traditonal" remedies are investigated and proved to have efficacy and then used. All power to that kind of thing. The people who used these remedies in the past were clearly onto something in some cases - like the cobwebs you mentioned way upthread that can now be shown to contain penecillin. I have nothing but respect for old knowledge like that when it can be proven to have real efficacy and I think any scientist/doctor would feel the same.

The battle is not with effective treatment - the battle is with ineffective treatment.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

"milk thistle is promoted on the internet for its claimed ability to slow certain kinds of cancer, but that there is no good evidence in support of these claims"

"It questioned the beneficial effects and highlighted the lack of high-quality evidence"

"clinical study results were described as heterogeneous and contradictory"

As for medicine
Many modern medicines are a refinement of natural medicines...aspirin for example comes from the bark of willow...
Nowadays it's manufactured. But it's use in modern medicine originates from the practical use of willow bark in the past
..Of course modern medicine and pharmaceutical industry has standardised it in terms of quality nd ensures that dosages are all similar. So that it is as safe as can be...
Cannabis...we see it now used medicinally for pain relief...for Parkinson sufferers...and as a huge help for people suffering from severe epilepsy...
Yet....it's only being taken seriously now because big pharma has recognised it. But 50 years ago and longer...it was used for similar effect just not regulated or "owned" by big pharmaceuticals.

Most medicines we use now had an origin in natural products and western medicine recognises this and has developed ways to regulate the safe manufacture and safe use of appropriate dosages

 

[Baronage-Phase]

Hint: It doesn’t.

Your liver is a remarkable organ that can repair itself. You can reduce a liver to something like 25% of its original size and it will entirely regenerate. “Detoxing”, “cleansing” or anything else is entirely unnecessary and are terms existing merely to sell dietary supplements and snake oil.

Only if it is not diseased or scarred. A scarred liver does not regenerate

 

[gentlegreen]

Shocking to see so many water companies refusing to totally reject dowsing.
You'd have thought they would get crap for that from the climate denying types who maintain that fresh water is not a scarce resource and that we pay too much for unstopped leaks.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

The battle is not with effective treatment - the battle is with ineffective treatment.

Ineffective treatment tends to limit it's own use eventually

 

[Baronage-Phase]

Shocking to see so many water companies refusing to totally reject dowsing.
You'd have thought they would get crap for that from the climate denying types who maintain that fresh water is not a scarce resource and that we pay too much for unstopped leaks.

Civil Engineers and architects know enough to not throw the baby out with the bath water.

If you'll excuse the pun
and dowsing is dirt cheap.

 

[Mrs Miggins]

Ineffective treatment tends to limit it's own use eventually

Sorry but...homeopathy is ineffective but a lot of people still use it.
However it can be effective because of the placebo effect which is fascinating and needs a lot more investigation.

 

[joustmaster]

That is obviously bullshit. I don`t believe that it even repairs the liver.... it flushes it when combined with.. say dandelion (diuretic). Cunts out there will prey on the weak... don`t throw the baby out !

I wonder how it compares to water.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

Sorry but...homeopathy is ineffective but a lot of people still use it.
However it can be effective because of the placebo effect which is fascinating and needs a lot more investigation.

What's really weird is that a placebo effect can be seen in animals... I really cant get my head around that...

 

[Ralph Llama]

Good docs on placebo




explain that !

 

[Ralph Llama]

I wonder how it compares to water.

not very well

 

[Baronage-Phase]

Placebo effect....
It's the mind over body thing isn't it?
It can work for some things....but if you have a leg hanging off it just won't.