Dowsing

[Mrs Miggins]

What's really weird is that a placebo effect can be seen in animals... I really cant get my head around that...

Yah - really interesing!

 

[Signal 11]

Everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that civil engineers have had and still have no problem with it as a preliminary marker

A credulous article in an engineering magazine doesn't change the fact that it has been tested and it doesn't work.

"The divining rod is performing a similar function to the gold leaf electroscope used during school physics to demonstrate electrostatic effects.

If that wasn't bullshit it would be very easy to prove. What evidence do you have?

The Munich experiment was a failure for the dowserd ...bar one who had remarkable success rate.

We've been through that already:

it is difficult to imagine a set of experimental results that would represent a more persuasive disproof of the ability of dowsers to do what they claim. The experiments thus can and should be considered a decisive failure by the dowsers.

Testing Dowsing: The Failure of the Munich Experiments - CSI

 

[Signal 11]

What's really weird is that a placebo effect can be seen in animals... I really cant get my head around that...

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/is-there-a-placebo-effect-for-animals/

 

[kropotkin]

Please define this “flushing” process.

And additionally how diuretics directly effect the liver

 

[Signal 11]

Have a look at this......especially 2 mins 12 seconds on



Just watch the speed that the hazel branch moves .

Can you explain why it doesn't do that when they can't see the bottle of water? Because I think I can.

 

[Ralph Llama]

And additionally how diuretics directly effect the liver

Sorry your going to have to phrase your question again I have already answered B`s question.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

Can you explain why it doesn't do that when they can't see the bottle of water? Because I think I can.

You've still not read the article in the Civil Engineering magazine...have you...? Too much like science eh? Too real? Who needs engineers saying it works ...

Seeing, as you called me a "prick" and a "twat" yesterday, and you've yet to apologise for your nasty anger...
I've made a conscious decision to keep posting the Civil Engineering Magazine quotes in response to you.

Locating underground features by dowsing

 

[Signal 11]

You've still not read the article in the Civil Engineering magazine...have you...?

I've read it and I've explained to you why it is worthless. I've asked you to support the claims that you've quoted from it and you've refused to do so.

Seeing, as you called me a "prick" and a "twat" yesterday, and you've yet to apologise for your nasty anger...

You were the one who started that. When you keep trying to provoke someone, don't cry about it when you get the response you were after.

 

[Ralph Llama]

Shit ! Signal 11 has been pushed over the edge

 

[Baronage-Phase]

I've read it and I've explained to you why it is worthless. I've asked you to support the claims that you've quoted from it and you've refused to do so.
You were the one who started that. When you keep trying to provoke someone, don't cry about it when you get the response you were after.

And I asked you already to quote where I called you names. But you didn't... because I didn't abuse you so there is no abusive post from me...
What happened was that you took exception to me saying your point was blinkered...and you went on a rant calling me a prick and a twat.

Even now you're still trying to make it my problem.

As for the Civil Engineering magazine article, it does support the issue and clearly points to the use of dowsing amongst civil engineers.

I don't need to explain the article...it's quite clear ...

Now... here it is again...
Lest anyone miss it in the flurry of your posts trying to hide it/denigrate it...because it doesn't suit your argumentative posting style ..

Locating underground features by dowsing

 

[Signal 11]

And I asked you already to quote where I called you names. But you didn't

You're a liar. If you think my post was out of order use the report button instead of derailing this thread by constantly whining about it it.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

You're a liar. If you think my post was out of order use the report button instead of derailing this thread by constantly whining about it it.

That link doesn't lead to anything abusive...

You're the one calling me "prick" and "twat" and now "liar".
Get over yourself.

As for derailing....I've kept on topic throughout. Despite your aggression.

 

[mrs quoad]

Locating underground features by dowsing

I was able to read this once, before it started asking for a guest login.

There’s nothing in there, from that reading, that remotely confirms anything about “dowsing working.”

There’s no mention of blinding.

Not any measure of what “very similar” stopping places means, or what happened to the 6 people who didn’t stop in those places, or of why women were apparently significant.

I missed the bt where they said what was under those points, and - more importantly - what was under all the places where they didn’t stop. Which would be necessary, in order to establish a meaningful hit rate. (Assuming all ground is dug to the same depth, and no further).

From my first - admittedly not too deep / engaged - reading, it read like a methodologically weak test of dowsing, but a strong test of confirmation bias; people find what they want to find, and believe it because they’ve looked for confirmatory evidence.

 

[Ralph Llama]

You're a liar. If you think my post was out of order use the report button instead of derailing this thread by constantly whining about it it.

At most Pippin was cheerfully cheeky !

 

[Signal 11]

As for derailing....I've kept on topic throughout.

There are questions that you've ignored on the topic directly in response to claims you've made here and here.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

I was able to read this once, before it started asking for a guest login.

There’s nothing in there, from that reading, that remotely confirms anything about “dowsing working.”

There’s no mention of blinding.

Not any measure of what “very similar” stopping places means, or what happened to the 6 people who didn’t stop in those places, or of why women were apparently significant.

I missed the bt where they said what was under those points, and - more importantly - what was under all the places where they didn’t stop. Which would be necessary, in order to establish a meaningful hit rate. (Assuming all ground is dug to the same depth, and no further).

From my first - admittedly not too deep / engaged - reading, it read like a methodologically weak test of dowsing, but a strong test of confirmation bias; people find what they want to find, and believe it because they’ve looked for confirmatory evidence.

Ah...don't know why you can't see the article. Here it is..for you.

"John Greenwood, Department of Civil and Structural Engineering, Nottingham Trent University and Robert Price, Castle Rock Geotech, Colwick, Nottingham.

Abstract

A lighthearted look at the ancient art of dowsing during a masters course on site investigation led to some surprising findings, with most of the course participants able to detect underground features with little prior tuition. An explanation of the phenomenon is provided in terms of electrostatic forces. It is considered that the technique may be of considerable value as an initial, cost effective, non-intrusive method for estimating location of certain underground services, water and voids before the use of conventional geophysical and exploratory techniques.

Click here

Introduction

The powers of dowsing using divining rods have been observed over the years and have either been dismissed as some sort of black art or trickery or perhaps accepted as being available only to those possessing a special sensitivity. Little credibility has been attached to the results because of lack of scientific explanation. During the part-time MSc module on site investigation at Nottingham Trent University in June 2000, the authors and the delegate group investigated the phenomenon of dowsing and came up with surprising findings. It was confirmed that the use of divining rods can be an effective and low-cost method of detecting the presence of underground services, water and voids.

The divining rods and their use

Traditionally, dowsers have used forked rods cut from hazel or other wood which deflect when the dowser's body reacts to a particular underground feature. However most dowsers today use simple bent metal rods which cross when a reaction occurs. A historical review of the application of dowsing was presented by Grounds (1996).

The authors made their rods from 4mm brass rods, obtained from a local DIY store for about £3, bent to the approximate dimensions (Figure 1).The rods are simply held, not too tightly, with the long arm horizontal. Figure 1 illustrates the holding of the rods, the walking action and the crossed position of the rods when a reaction occurs. Experience has shown that many people have a strong reaction in only one rod - often the right-hand - and therefore a single rod is often adequate.

Dowsing demonstration

During the site investigation course, Robert Price was able to demonstrate his dowsing ability to a group of 15 delegates by locating the position of a service duct running from a manhole in the university grounds. The group was initially sceptical but, after 'having a go' for themselves, discovered that two-thirds of them experienced a similar reaction in the divining rods at the same location (Figure 2).

Each delegate was then invited to walk along a 15m tape laid on the ground and record any reactions in the rods. The location of a reaction was taken to be the position of the delegate's toes at the point of strongest reaction. The results are plotted in Figure 3.The locations detected by the inexperienced delegates who did have a reaction compared well with the locations picked up by Price (participant 16). It is of interest to note that the four females (participants 5,7,8 and 10) all had positive reactions at very similar locations along the tape. All were satisfied that dowsing had some merit as an aid to site investigation.

Other evidence of the value of dowsing While there is some documented evidence of dowsing success (Killip,1984 and Wilcock,1994), the method has tended to be regarded as a gift of special individuals. It is encouraging that a high proportion of people, perhaps 60% to 80% of those introduced to the technique, have a measure of success. The National Coal Board's in-house guidance notes The treatment of disused mine shafts and adits (1982) refer to the use of the services of water diviners and the success of some NCB engineers in detecting underground discontinuities with purpose-made rods. It is believed that many water company workers carry divining rods to help locate positions of pipes and leaks but there is perhaps a slight embarrassment for such staff who seem to possess this mystical power.

Possible causes

Once the existence of the dowsing phenomenon is accepted, the next question has to be 'what is causing it?' Wilcock lists the various force fields which might affect the sensitivity of the human body and rods: gravitational, magnetic, electric, electromagnetic, radioactive, seismic (the stress field around fractures, fissures and faults), geothermal, and geochemical. Of these, he considered the electric, magnetic and electromagnetic fields to be the most probable candidates with the skin conductivity of the dowser playing a part.

An explanation

While working with the divining rods, the joint author John Greenwood became overheated and on removing his acrylic pullover discovered that the rods were particularly sensitive to the electrostatic field that surrounded it. When the pullover was placed on the ground, the rods responded very positively as his body passed over it. The effect was even more pronounced when the rods were rubbed on the acrylic pullover prior to dowsing. A similar response in the rods was found when dowsing over a bowl of water placed on the ground.

The electrostatic explanation ties in with the likely presence of varying electrostatic fields around pipes, cables, voids and bodies of water. It may be that forward motion will also play a part in the response of the rods to the fields that are present.

The divining rod is performing a similar function to the gold leaf electroscope used during school physics to demonstrate electrostatic effects. The charges on the rods cause a response in relation to the charges on the object. Like charges repel and opposite charges attract to influence the alignment that the rods are trying to take up. It was noted that if the dowser removed his or her shoes, their sensitivity often increased, indicating the importance of electrical continuity with the ground.

Some work has been published (www.connect.ab.ca/~tylosky/) supporting the electrostatic explanation and providing a convincing argument as to why one hand (the right) is sometimes more responsive than the other. The existence and detection of electrostatic fields associated with underground features is being researched at Nottingham Trent University with the intention of developing a scientific instrument, operating independently of the human body, to assist the geotechnical engineer in locating underground features.

Conclusions

Most people, but not all, are able to generate a reaction in divining rods relating to the presence of underground features such as cables, metal and plastic pipes, buried tanks, foundations, trenches, large tree roots, voids/cavities and bodies of water.The control and understanding of the response seems to improve with practice.

The reaction is explained in terms of electrostatics and the rods aligning themselves with the various electrostatic fields present around the underground features.

Limitations are its dependence on operator sensitivity and the presence of electrostatic fields to relate the object to the divining rods. It should not be used as a substitute for locating services in consultation with the statutory authorities before any excavation. However it is a very cheap, and often remarkably effective (and entertaining! ) way of making a preliminary 'geophysical' appraisal of a site before more detailed geophysical and intrusive investigation work.

Acknowledgements

The enthusiastic participation and support of the delegates on the part-time MSc course in geotechnical engineering design and management at Nottingham Trent University is much appreciated by the authors.

References

Grounds AC (1996).Dowsing as a tool for location of underground services.BEng Dissertation, Ref ES/96, Boots Library, Nottingham Trent University.

Hansen GP (1982).Dowsing - a review of experimental research.J Soc Psychical Research 51 (792) 343- 367.

Killip I (1984).Detecting geophysical anomalies at construction sites by dowsing.Land and mineral surveying 2 (12),633-644.

Wilcock J (1994).Royal Forest of Dean caving symposium. www-sop.inria.fr/agos-sophia/sis/dowsing/dowsdean.html"

 

[Baronage-Phase]

There are questions that you've ignored on the topic directly in response to claims you've made here and here.

Ask a civil engineer... I'm not one.
I quoted you an article from a civil engineer magazine that was well written and researched.. you decided to quiz me as to why dowsing does or doesn't work. Why do you think I would know that?

 

[Signal 11]

I quoted you an article from a civil engineer magazine that was well written and researched

No you didn't. You quoted an article that was garbage and several people have explained to you why it is garbage.

you decided to quiz me as to why dowsing does or doesn't work.

No I didn't. I explained to you that since it has been tested and it doesn't work, any speculation about how it could work is worthless.

 

[mrs quoad]

Testing Dowsing: The Failure of the Munich Experiments - CSI

Wow.



As scatterplots intended to demonstrate a relationship, those are appalling.

 

[keybored]

I was able to read this once, before it started asking for a guest login.

Just clear your cache or use an incognito/private session. They've published an article that vaguely supports witchcraft, they're hardly going to be competent enough to run an effective paywall.

 

[mrs quoad]

Ask a civil engineer... I'm not one.
I quoted you an article from a civil engineer magazine that was well written and researched.. you decided to quiz me as to why dowsing does or doesn't work. Why do you think I would know that?

From an academic perspective, that article is not credible.

The sum total of the references is: one Bachelors dissertation; one paper from a caving symposium?!; and two other papers, which may be credible, but which are both from the 1980s.

This is a “light hearted” article in a magazine. It is not credible research in a peer reviewed journal.

 

[mrs quoad]

And having re-read it, my previous comments all stand. That is not a study of dowsing. At best, it’s a study of confirmation bias.

They don’t even say what they actually found beneath the points at which people (who may or may not have seen each other stop there already) stopped. So far as we know, there may have been literally nothing.

Methodologically, it’s appalling. It can say literally nothing about dowsing - it doesn’t have the capacity to, because the way it’s been carried out / written up strips it of the ability to say anything about the phenomenon it claims to be investigating.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Ah...don't know why you can't see the article. Here it is..for you.

"John Greenwood, Department of Civil and Structural Engineering, Nottingham Trent University and Robert Price, Castle Rock Geotech, Colwick, Nottingham.

Abstract

A lighthearted look at the ancient art of dowsing during a masters course on site investigation led to some surprising findings, with most of the course participants able to detect underground features with little prior tuition. An explanation of the phenomenon is provided in terms of electrostatic forces. It is considered that the technique may be of considerable value as an initial, cost effective, non-intrusive method for estimating location of certain underground services, water and voids before the use of conventional geophysical and exploratory techniques.

Click here

Introduction

The powers of dowsing using divining rods have been observed over the years and have either been dismissed as some sort of black art or trickery or perhaps accepted as being available only to those possessing a special sensitivity. Little credibility has been attached to the results because of lack of scientific explanation. During the part-time MSc module on site investigation at Nottingham Trent University in June 2000, the authors and the delegate group investigated the phenomenon of dowsing and came up with surprising findings. It was confirmed that the use of divining rods can be an effective and low-cost method of detecting the presence of underground services, water and voids.

The divining rods and their use

Traditionally, dowsers have used forked rods cut from hazel or other wood which deflect when the dowser's body reacts to a particular underground feature. However most dowsers today use simple bent metal rods which cross when a reaction occurs. A historical review of the application of dowsing was presented by Grounds (1996).

The authors made their rods from 4mm brass rods, obtained from a local DIY store for about £3, bent to the approximate dimensions (Figure 1).The rods are simply held, not too tightly, with the long arm horizontal. Figure 1 illustrates the holding of the rods, the walking action and the crossed position of the rods when a reaction occurs. Experience has shown that many people have a strong reaction in only one rod - often the right-hand - and therefore a single rod is often adequate.

Dowsing demonstration

During the site investigation course, Robert Price was able to demonstrate his dowsing ability to a group of 15 delegates by locating the position of a service duct running from a manhole in the university grounds. The group was initially sceptical but, after 'having a go' for themselves, discovered that two-thirds of them experienced a similar reaction in the divining rods at the same location (Figure 2).

Each delegate was then invited to walk along a 15m tape laid on the ground and record any reactions in the rods. The location of a reaction was taken to be the position of the delegate's toes at the point of strongest reaction. The results are plotted in Figure 3.The locations detected by the inexperienced delegates who did have a reaction compared well with the locations picked up by Price (participant 16). It is of interest to note that the four females (participants 5,7,8 and 10) all had positive reactions at very similar locations along the tape. All were satisfied that dowsing had some merit as an aid to site investigation.

Other evidence of the value of dowsing While there is some documented evidence of dowsing success (Killip,1984 and Wilcock,1994), the method has tended to be regarded as a gift of special individuals. It is encouraging that a high proportion of people, perhaps 60% to 80% of those introduced to the technique, have a measure of success. The National Coal Board's in-house guidance notes The treatment of disused mine shafts and adits (1982) refer to the use of the services of water diviners and the success of some NCB engineers in detecting underground discontinuities with purpose-made rods. It is believed that many water company workers carry divining rods to help locate positions of pipes and leaks but there is perhaps a slight embarrassment for such staff who seem to possess this mystical power.

Possible causes

Once the existence of the dowsing phenomenon is accepted, the next question has to be 'what is causing it?' Wilcock lists the various force fields which might affect the sensitivity of the human body and rods: gravitational, magnetic, electric, electromagnetic, radioactive, seismic (the stress field around fractures, fissures and faults), geothermal, and geochemical. Of these, he considered the electric, magnetic and electromagnetic fields to be the most probable candidates with the skin conductivity of the dowser playing a part.

An explanation

While working with the divining rods, the joint author John Greenwood became overheated and on removing his acrylic pullover discovered that the rods were particularly sensitive to the electrostatic field that surrounded it. When the pullover was placed on the ground, the rods responded very positively as his body passed over it. The effect was even more pronounced when the rods were rubbed on the acrylic pullover prior to dowsing. A similar response in the rods was found when dowsing over a bowl of water placed on the ground.

The electrostatic explanation ties in with the likely presence of varying electrostatic fields around pipes, cables, voids and bodies of water. It may be that forward motion will also play a part in the response of the rods to the fields that are present.

The divining rod is performing a similar function to the gold leaf electroscope used during school physics to demonstrate electrostatic effects. The charges on the rods cause a response in relation to the charges on the object. Like charges repel and opposite charges attract to influence the alignment that the rods are trying to take up. It was noted that if the dowser removed his or her shoes, their sensitivity often increased, indicating the importance of electrical continuity with the ground.

Some work has been published (www.connect.ab.ca/~tylosky/) supporting the electrostatic explanation and providing a convincing argument as to why one hand (the right) is sometimes more responsive than the other. The existence and detection of electrostatic fields associated with underground features is being researched at Nottingham Trent University with the intention of developing a scientific instrument, operating independently of the human body, to assist the geotechnical engineer in locating underground features.

Conclusions

Most people, but not all, are able to generate a reaction in divining rods relating to the presence of underground features such as cables, metal and plastic pipes, buried tanks, foundations, trenches, large tree roots, voids/cavities and bodies of water.The control and understanding of the response seems to improve with practice.

The reaction is explained in terms of electrostatics and the rods aligning themselves with the various electrostatic fields present around the underground features.

Limitations are its dependence on operator sensitivity and the presence of electrostatic fields to relate the object to the divining rods. It should not be used as a substitute for locating services in consultation with the statutory authorities before any excavation. However it is a very cheap, and often remarkably effective (and entertaining! ) way of making a preliminary 'geophysical' appraisal of a site before more detailed geophysical and intrusive investigation work.

Acknowledgements

The enthusiastic participation and support of the delegates on the part-time MSc course in geotechnical engineering design and management at Nottingham Trent University is much appreciated by the authors.

References

Grounds AC (1996).Dowsing as a tool for location of underground services.BEng Dissertation, Ref ES/96, Boots Library, Nottingham Trent University.

Hansen GP (1982).Dowsing - a review of experimental research.J Soc Psychical Research 51 (792) 343- 367.

Killip I (1984).Detecting geophysical anomalies at construction sites by dowsing.Land and mineral surveying 2 (12),633-644.

Wilcock J (1994).Royal Forest of Dean caving symposium. www-sop.inria.fr/agos-sophia/sis/dowsing/dowsdean.html"

So much to pick apart in that, but let’s start with this:

“During the site investigation course, Robert Price was able to demonstrate his dowsing ability to a group of 15 delegates by locating the position of a service duct running from a manhole in the university grounds. The group was initially sceptical but, after 'having a go' for themselves, discovered that two-thirds of them experienced a similar reaction in the divining rods at the same location”

So, man who can dowse manages it when he knows where the duct is. Amazingly, other people can do it too when they’ve also been shown.

And we’re meant to take this as science, lol

 

[Signal 11]

The sum total of the references is: one Bachelors dissertation; one paper from a caving symposium?!; and two other papers, which may be credible, but which are both from the 1980s.

I read the review article it references last night. It didn't address the claim that there are fields to be detected but it did cite several studies that tested whether dowsers would be able to detect them if they were there. Most of the results were as expected from chance although some non peer reviewed sources made stronger claims that they didn't adequately support. There was one where they buried an iron bar that could be detected with a magnetometer and the dowsers guesses were like the random ones above.

It also cited a study where they tested them under natural conditions:

Twenty-seven dowsers were taken separately to a small field near Liberty, Maine and asked to locate the best spot for a well, estimate the depth, and the flow rate. Pipes were later driven, water level measured, and the wells were pumped to determine the capacity. A water engineer and a geologist were asked to estimate depth and flow rate at several locations (the engineer and geologist knew of a nearby well, the dowsers did not). The soil was relatively soft, and the water table was nearly level and close to the surface. The geologist’s and engineer’s predictions were quite good; the dowsers’ predictions were quite far from the mark.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Also, this repeating of some engineers using dowsing...

It means nothing. History is full of very clever people who get things wrong.

 

[Ralph Llama]

What we are saying that there ARE signs that something is going on, also it`s irrelevant when something is published unless it`s been disproved since.

 

[Signal 11]

What we are saying that there ARE signs that something is going on

Just watch the speed that the hazel branch moves!

 

[mrs quoad]

What we are saying that there ARE signs that something is going on, also it`s irrelevant when something is published unless it`s been disproved since.

I’m not sure you understand how science works, how the quality of scientific publications / research is assessed, or the fundamentals of methodological rigour.

If you mean the 1980s references - if a 2017 magazine article is citing a Bachelors thesis, a symposium on caving and two 1980s sources as its only authoritative academic bases for deeply methodologically unreliable research, then that’s seriously problematic.

 

[Ralph Llama]

Well, that would be why it`s not established fact. But I would say there is reason to look into the matter further.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

So much to pick apart in that, but let’s start with this:

“During the site investigation course, Robert Price was able to demonstrate his dowsing ability to a group of 15 delegates by locating the position of a service duct running from a manhole in the university grounds. The group was initially sceptical but, after 'having a go' for themselves, discovered that two-thirds of them experienced a similar reaction in the divining rods at the same location”

So, man who can dowse manages it when he knows where the duct is. Amazingly, other people can do it too when they’ve also been shown.

And we’re meant to take this as science, lol

It's a civil engineering article ..
If you are looking for proof then you wont find it. .
Because as has been said repeatedly the only test carried out concluded that the subjects investigated did not find water.
But...
That investigation setting was in a barn and the dowsers were put a floor above the floor where pipes were placed. No earth..no ground...just a room full of air.

I have no idea why it can work...or if science will prove it in a natural setting. But I'm not ruling it out because I've seen it done repeatedly at different locations...many with no access to public water systems where people were looking to dig a well... Sorry...but that was enough to convince me.

I'm not posting on here to convince anyone. But because I have brought different points of view I feel I've been targeted by one or two posters.

I would love to see a test carried out in a natural setting...