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    Lazy Llama

Does anarchism have a serious future?

I think this is an opportunity to evaluate anarchism today. It doesn't matter that the originator of the thread has a view. The fact is anarchism has failed to attain its goals (true also of Marxism and reformist socialism). Yet the injustices of society are so accute that the need for some kind of solution rejecting capitalist heirarchy is more pressing than ever. No-where has anarchism become a significant influential force for any length of time, and no where less so than the UK.

In recent times the emergence of an anti-capitalist current, a huge movement against the economic injustice of neo-liberalism, and against war has openned up real opportunities for an activist libertarian collectivist current to thrive.

The idea that liberty and capitalism go hand in hand - or could even go hand in hand - is refuted, bith in practice and in the ideology of the capitalists themselves. Reformist socialism is firmly entrenched in the mire of failure with reformist parties now happily running capitalism and perpetuating the most extreme right-wing neo-liberal ideological practice.

Marxism has its baggage. Having become associated with some of the most opporessive and heirarchical regimes.

One would have thought that anarchism should be experiencing some kind of rennaissance. Not so though.

Subjectively Anarchism has been torn apart by the hopeless sectarian stupidity of aloof intellectuals on the one hand and elitist posteuring on the other.

Objectively there is a flaw at the core of anarchy. Individualism. Individualism as opposed to collectivism arises from specific class interests. The bourgeois individualist can happily embrace anarchism in theory demanding that the state leaves him be to exploit without interference. The free hand of the market will bring about peace and harmony if unmolested by the nanny state.
But anarchism also has a peasant basis at its origins and thus articulates a desire to bring down the authority of capitalist masters as well. Again the individual comes to the fore in peasant ideology all the while the aspirations are to develope ones own land and own property without the oppression of landlords. But with the advent of capitalism such straight-forward individualism is shown to be incapable of challenging the rule of the opporessors.

Collectivism is embraced of necessity because only collective struggle is viable and only collective production can hope to form a structured society free from bosses. But here is a conflict and contradiction within the heart of anarchism that cannot be resolved. Any collective will result in the prospect of some form of majority decision - and thus the liberty of the individual is threatened.

This becomes all the clearer when the question of the state is considered. For the majority class - the working class - to seize power as a class they must have to enforce their rule as a class rule. It is inconceivable that the minority capitalist class will simply stand aside peacefully. Any oppression of one class by another - however democratic, and even if it is the majority class imposing its will on the minority - has to be opposed in principle by anarchists. Fundamental to Anarchist ideology is opposition to state and law as enemy. There is, in the final analysis, no class collective solution acceptible to anarchists for whom the bottom line remains individual liberty. So the position is adopted that all state power and all law must immediately be abolished or nothing has changed. This utopia is obviously not attainable.

In the day to day struggle this utopian individualism cripples anarchism from contributing to any real movement for liberty of the many. Insofar as Anarchism has at any stage contributed to the struggle it has been through accentuation of the collective and class element of struggle and the subordination of individualism - Spanish @ trade unions, syndicalism etc. Here though, a utopian position vis a vis power and the state renders @ impotent at key and decisive points.

Even in small scale struggle @ is weak. The battle for a change in law is possible for a reformist with illussions in the capitalist state. It is also possible for a Marxist. For Marxists all law is class law. It is possible through collective action to force concessions from the state that are set as markers in law. Trade union rights, equal pay legislation etc are, for Marxists a small victory possible because of the strength of the collective working class movement. For an anarchist the state and law as enemy means that the key issue is not the balance of class forces but rather the existance of the state and law. So any such victory is a contribution to the problem and not a victory at all. Thus anarchists render themselves impotent in the day to day struggles. Impotence plus utopianism of course encourages the kind of purile oppositionism to all manifestations of our society whether benevolent or malevolent, and can lead to an atttack on an anti-fascist meeting for e.g. at an event attended by 10,000s of people who reject many of the worst aspects of the system and who choose to do something about it. The very people who should be the audience sought by any anti-authoritarian tendency are attacked as the enemy. Thus anarchism denies itself a any future.

Anarchists also take the individualism at the heart of their ideology to the question of organisation. Heirarchy of all kinds, however democratic is rejected in theory. All heirarchy leads to power and all power to corruption. So the organisational basis for anarchism in theory becomes a network of autonomous individuals or a loose federation of groups of autonomous individuals cooperating voluntarily with no leadership and no rigid structure. In practice this leads to elitist forms of struggle undertaken on behalf of the poor/oppressed/working class who are viewed as too dim witted to form part of this elitist goup. Vanguardism (class conscious workers organised in a party to seek to take forward the class struggle) is rejected in favour of elitist action. 'Vanguardism' seeks to organise the most militant sections of the class to enable them to challenge the influence of capitalist ideology over the rest of the class - a philosophy that requires organisation and struggle involving the mass of workers. Anarchist elitism is by its nature separate from the mass of the people it seeks to liberate. The lack of an organised structure means in practice there can be no democratic calling to account and a secret unaccountable leadership emerges in the case of e.g. the Wombles. Since small elitist actions are more prone to disruption by state infiltration and state repression the organised @ cells become ever more heirarchical and elitist (as an attempt to avoid state disruption) whilst raging in theory against heirarchy. Thus many of those rightly attracted to the idea of anti-authority and challenging heirarchy are repulsed by the reality of the organisations who claim to be the most consistant anti-auhoritarians.

:p
 
Dear fucking god. I'm glald i'm going to bed - what self-serving tautological crap/ignorance. Yes, you'll get a proper reply tomorrow. But i'd be ashamed if i'd made a similiarly shallow critique of leninism. Really i would.

And what makes it worse is that you actually tried.
 
butchersapron said:
Really? I would never have guessed :p

Help him out someone.

I am beyond help. :(

But I am right about @.

Of course, on the subject of jealousy, the number of posts started by certain @'s about RESPECT/SWP/STWC show there is a real case of the green eyed monster as far as political influence is concerned. :p
 
Mate, you're so off being right that i suspect this will be held up as a humuorous lesson in getting things wrong for years to come - you have got everything wrong. Despite your utter conviction that you have everything right.

edit: and this sort of crap isn't going to get her back either - not unless she has really fucking low standards.
 
i couldn't be arsed to read all that either.

the only attraction anarchism has for me is its anti-authoritarianism (altho I have to qualify that by being disturbed/amused at some of the more extreme - usually m/c versions - of this), both politically and organisationally.

As an ideological contention of Leninism and Trotskyism it's very pertinent.

But really, its a bit utopian, I find. it's like, having an anarchist conscience is a good thing, but the reality of politics sometimes means that purity of conscience condemns you to isolation and political irrelevance.

This utopianism is not a feature of anrachism in other countries, however. anarcho-syndicalism has an honourable tradition. probably something to do with its class-orientation.

So, I ain't an anarchist, but I like (most of) those I have met & worked with, and they are generally less sectarian than other left groups (in my experience), even if their all-inclusiveness can sometimes be frustrating and counter-productive.
 
haggy said:
This utopianism is not a feature of anrachism in other countries, however. anarcho-syndicalism has an honourable tradition. probably something to do with its class-orientation.

Well yes, it is a feature of @ in other countries. anarcho-syndicalism does have an honourable tradition (especially in Spain) but it is alsio a flawed tradition.

Many @-syndicalists joined the Bolshevik tradition (corrupted by Stalinism). I have the reproduced Syndicalst newspapers in their entirety from the period of the Great Unrest in Britain. A mixture of utopianism, (trade union) reformism, sectarianism, anti-militarism and militant class struggle. Tom Mann et al joined the CP. The Syndicalists collapsed at the outbreak of WW1.
 
Unlike the 2nd international which the communists were organised in - 4th august 1914 is a proud day for them/you.

Good trick that condemning yourelf without condmening yourself. Bolsheviks got that one down pat
 
Syndicalists like Tom Man were better than the leadership of the 2nd international. Unlike LP he did not capitulate to supporting his country in war. The Syndicalist was among those tendencies overtly condemning the drive to war. This is why many of these couragious individuals joined the CP.

The very fact that these were among the best and most class conscious worker militants makes it all the more a shame that their organisation and political ideology was not capable of withstanding the outbreak of war. We have the benefit of hindsight. The Bolsheviks and Luxemburg's Polish organisation were the only consistant anti-imperialist organisations. But it was the @ rejection of overt politics/party so weakened the Synidicalists.
 
Well, actually it was the Bulgarians rather than the Poles (and the bolsheviks split with the majority supporting the war) who were the only 2nd internationalists to be consistent. (i'm fed up telling you lot your own history)

Your own organsiation broke on the war - the arrogance that it must take then to argue that:

"The very fact that these were among the best and most class conscious worker militants makes it all the more a shame that their organisation and political ideology was not capable of withstanding the outbreak of war."

Is appalling.
 
butchersapron said:
Well, actually it was the Bulgarians rather than the Poles (and the bolsheviks split with the majority supporting the war) who were the only 2nd internationalists to be consistent. (i'm fed up telling you lot your own history)

Your own organsiation broke on the war - the arrogance that it must take then to argue that:

"The very fact that these were among the best and most class conscious worker militants makes it all the more a shame that their organisation and political ideology was not capable of withstanding the outbreak of war."

Is appalling.

There were two parties in Poland. One effectively led by Rosa Luxemburg (from Germany!) took a revolutionary defeatest position as did the Bolsheviks who were already a distinct political tendency with separate organisational structures in many if not most localities. They were the only two parties to take such a clear position. The Bulgarians took a pacifist position as did Kautsky's split in Germany.

Now I really am off to bed. :)
 
You mean the party that was part of the SPD and that became the USPD taking the pacifist role? The party that didn't do what you claim that they did? That one? You're wrong mate. And you've ignored the serbs - haven't you?
 
Oh dear, what an awful thread, particularly Groucho's appalling and erroneous piece.
By the way, I now think I know who he is. An obsessive writer of letters ( many of them boring and inconsequential)to many newspapers and magazines, so much so that one publication declared its letters pages a -----free zone, perhaps?
 
Actually I thought Joe's questions were quite reasonable and offered the chance to discuss what anarchism's about now/what it has to offer in the future.

pretty pisspoor that the bulk of the @s on here sought to evade those questions by childish insults and "Leninist" smears.

For myself, @ is totally irrelevant as a political practice, but not so as a set of ideas. Much like Marxism, then.
 
steeplejack said:
Actually I thought Joe's questions were quite reasonable and offered the chance to discuss what anarchism's about now/what it has to offer in the future.
I don't know about the "Leninist" and "Bolshevik" stuff, but considering that he opened the thread by aserting that:
anarchism is as old as the hills but has never made a difference anywhere
Which is patently untrue, its unsurprising that many anarchists have no interest in engaging with somebody so absurdly and willfully ignorant.
 
charlie mowbray said:
Oh dear, what an awful thread, particularly Groucho's appalling and erroneous piece.
By the way, I now think I know who he is. An obsessive writer of letters ( many of them boring and inconsequential)to many newspapers and magazines, so much so that one publication declared its letters pages a -----free zone, perhaps?

beard liberation front?
 
steeplejack said:
Actually I thought Joe's questions were quite reasonable and offered the chance to discuss what anarchism's about now/what it has to offer in the future.

pretty pisspoor that the bulk of the @s on here sought to evade those questions by childish insults and "Leninist" smears.

For myself, @ is totally irrelevant as a political practice, but not so as a set of ideas. Much like Marxism, then.

Cheers 'Doc'. Liberterianism seems to be painted pretty thin! Makes you kinda wonder what an anarchist organisation/society where fundamentalists like 'Cpl' Ludd and co held sway would really be like dosen't it?

Overall the response from anarchists is either to shun the debate as beneath them (the question being clearly impertinent!) or to define any discussion in 'safe' Leninist v Anarchist terms when Bolshevism is totally discredited, anti-democratic, anti-working class and in any case long dead.

All of which in its own way does provide an answer to my original question.
 
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