Did you look at racism, misogyny, antisemitism etc in Shakespeare study?

[Cloo]

So the Mail is clutching its pearls that 'RSC bosses' are talking about discussing issues like racism in Shakespeare to make it more relevant to the Kids and all that; Bill can't be cancelled, why does everything have to be so woke etc etc.

But surely students have been looking at these aspects of Shakespeare for decades now? We certainly did from when I started studying them nearly 30 years ago, it's hardly new. I can't imagine any students have looked at Bill's plays without ever tackling inherent misogyny, racism and so on. No one's been looking at Merchant of Venice and not bothering with the antisemitism angle. And none of this has ever amounted to saying Shakespeare was racist, sexist etc and must be banned.

To my mind it's part of his genius that his work stands up to this examination and still has so much to say to us - some people seem to fail to understand that examining these aspects of classic works is not about taking them down, but looking at them afresh.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

We did Merchant of Venice for O-level (so ages ago) and of course it was used as a vehicle by which to discuss antisemitism. That's the main thing I remember from it.

I have read that some companies now don't do certain plays, such as Taming of the Shrew, because of the misogyny. Don't know that play so can't comment on it too much except to say that, if you're uncomfortable putting something on, then don't. That's entirely up to them.

Nothing to see here, methinks.

 

[Pickman's model]

the thing about shakespeare is that it can be anything that directors and actors want to make it. it's not one thing or another - for example, i saw mark rylance as richard iii in the play of the same name playing it as a comedy rather than a tragedy - the famous story of marie lloyd singing something innocuous and making it filthy and singing something filthy and making it innocuous leaps to mind, well mine anyway. as littlebabyjesus various controversial bits have been discussed for many years in schools and universities in the course of teaching shakespeare. i think it's another attempt to introduce a culture war - 'lefties / the woke / liberals are coming for the bard' - when lefties / the woke / liberals are doing no such thing

 

[nogojones]

I did Romeo and Juliet, taught by a teacher who tried their hardest to bore us ridged and teach us answers by rote. I can't recall any discussions about the social context of anything we did. The Mail would have loved him.

I think this is reflected in the grade 4 CSE in English Lit that I achieved.

 

[8ball]

We did Romeo and Juliet too. Mostly I remember the teacher always wanting me to read Mercutio's part.
I did a very hammy death scene, sometimes in a borderline-offensive attempt at an Italian accent.

 

[A380]

So the Mail is clutching its pearls that 'RSC bosses' are talking about discussing issues like racism in Shakespeare to make it more relevant to the Kids and all that; Bill can't be cancelled, why does everything have to be so woke etc etc.

But surely students have been looking at these aspects of Shakespeare for decades now? We certainly did from when I started studying them nearly 30 years ago, it's hardly new. I can't imagine any students have looked at Bill's plays without ever tackling inherent misogyny, racism and so on. No one's been looking at Merchant of Venice and not bothering with the antisemitism angle. And none of this has ever amounted to saying Shakespeare was racist, sexist etc and must be banned.

To my mind it's part of his genius that his work stands up to this examination and still has so much to say to us - some people seem to fail to understand that examining these aspects of classic works is not about taking them down, but looking at them afresh.

Mail innit, Don't look at Big Dog, look over there...

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

It’s just more culture war bullshit.

 

[8ball]

It’s just more culture war bullshit.

I'm just waiting for it to end now. Wonder which side will win...

 

[Sue]

We did Merchant of Venice for O-level (so ages ago) and of course it was used as a vehicle by which to discuss antisemitism. That's the main thing I remember from it.

I have read that some companies now don't do certain plays, such as Taming of the Shrew, because of the misogyny. Don't know that play so can't comment on it too much except to say that, if you're uncomfortable putting something on, then don't. That's entirely up to them.

Nothing to see here, methinks.

I can recommend Kiss Me Kate for the added singing and dancing and advice on brushing up your Shakespeare...

 

[A380]

It's somewhat ironic, given most Mail readers think Iambic Pentameter is a foreign refugee who's going to get moved into the house next door and get a free big telly off the council.

 

[Cloo]

I didn't actually ever study Merchant of Venice, but definitely remember discussing misogyny in 'Much Ado About Nothing' and obviously, racism in 'Othello', for example.

 

[xenon]

12th night, Romeo and Juliet, kinglier. I don’t remember discussions about the social context or any of that. Just similes imagery, iambic pentameter blah blah.

 

[killer b]

We definitely did, 25 years ago. Surely the only way to make this stuff bearable for most teenagers is to relate it somehow to stuff they actually know and care about?

 

[xenon]

Actually not quite true. King Leer, family obviously, familial expectations, tropes.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I can recommend Kiss Me Kate for the added singing and dancing and advice on brushing up your Shakespeare...

Shakespeare and a musical? Oh god, do I have to?

Thing is, as Pickman's says, directors and actors have messed around with Shakespeare basically for ever. It's often cut liberally for all kinds of reasons. The text is a source material that you can do what you like with. Sometimes it even gets put to music.

 

[JimW]

We did too, also years back but might be mixing up what I did at school with a few years later when I was taking evening classes trying to get into university.

 

[xenon]

Obviously we did cover racism when it came to other texts. For example we read Beloved in the same A-level English class.

 

[Sue]

Shakespeare and a musical? Oh god, do I have to?

Oh, you're not a musicals person. Sorry!

 

[contadino]

Yeah. By all means ditch Shakespeare, but put some effort in. Misogyny in Midsummer night's dream, antisemitism in Merchant of Venice, etc..

Can't they bin him based on just being really boring? It's about as relevant to modern life as a Carry On film.

 

[JimW]

Yeah. By all means ditch Shakespeare, but put some effort in. Misogyny in Midsummer night's dream, antisemitism in Merchant of Venice, etc..

Can't they bin him based on just being really boring? It's about as relevant to modern life as a Carry On film.

Don't get this at all, strikes me as still being a heavy influence on massively successful modern cultural products like Game of Thrones.
Don't think the sky would fall if we did stop teaching some of these cultural touchstones but as it stands they are embedded in a lot of ways and can be taught in ways I'd regard as of value.

 

[Ax^]

hmm is anyone really seriously talking about cancelling Shakesphere or is the daily mail just having a frotting season of woke lefties again

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Don't get this at all, strikes me as still being a heavy influence on massively successful modern cultural products like Game of Thrones.
Don't think the sky would fall if we did stop teaching some of these cultural touchstones but as it stands they are embedded in a lot of ways and can be taught in ways I'd regard as of value.

Yeah, totally. Shakespeare is incredibly embedded in our culture, and not just in the English-speaking world. Massively influential in Germany and many other places as well.

There is lots of amazing stuff in Shakespeare - in the tragedies for me, mostly. But I think much of it requires a bit of life experience to really appreciate. It's not an easy thing to teach to kids, I don't think. Need to be selective about which ones to use. Macbeth's a good one. Action, gore, witches, ambition, betrayal ... and not too long.

 

[danny la rouge]

Massively influential in Germany and many other places as well.

Including Kronos, where they claim Shakespeare as their own.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Including Kronos, where they claim Shakespeare as their own.

Played by David Warner, an accomplished Shakespearean.

 

[SpookyFrank]

English teaching is a bad joke these days. Was in a classroom today that had fill-in-the-blanks paragraphs up on the walls for the kids to memorise so they could accurately relate 'their' opinions on this or that text in an exam. If I'd been subjected to that shit I'd probably never have touched a book again after leaving school.

Not just English tbf; GCSEs have reduced all human knowledge and experience to grey slime, Shakespeare included

 

[contadino]

Don't get this at all, strikes me as still being a heavy influence on massively successful modern cultural products like Game of Thrones.
Don't think the sky would fall if we did stop teaching some of these cultural touchstones but as it stands they are embedded in a lot of ways and can be taught in ways I'd regard as of value.

Don't get me wrong. I know that it contains plenty of subtext and observation, but I've never voluntarily picked up Shakespeare in the way that I've chosen to read Dante, Homer, Dickens, etc..

That said, there's such a wealth of good works that I think would draw kids in that are more accessible, that I don't think Shakespeare's as relevant nowadays.

I'm just coming at it from the angle of 'what would fire a 15 year old me up?'

 

[planetgeli]

My gf's dissertation was on women and patriarchy in selected Jacobean tragedies if that helps.

Pretty sure we discussed antisemitism reading Merchant of Venice at 14 (pre-O Level introduction to Shakespeare).

 

[killer b]

Don't get me wrong. I know that it contains plenty of subtext and observation, but I've never voluntarily picked up Shakespeare in the way that I've chosen to read Dante, Homer, Dickens, etc..

They're plays though aren't they. not really for reading like a book.

 

[killer b]

we watched Baz Luhrman's Romeo & Juliet with my brats last week and they loved it btw

 

[Diamond]

I studied Othello. We talked very briefly about race, mainly to note that while it is the thing that interests people today most about Othello, it is not actually a theme of the play as much as loyalty, friendship, trust, being an outsider etc. It felt about right.

That was 20 years ago. Would be interesting to see how that has changed, if at all.