Dialectical Materialism

[Proper Tidy]

exactly bit like arguing about angels and pinheads meaningless.
No country that claimed to be marxist was a pleasant place to live.
The basic idea might have merit but details fucked it up.
capitalism maybe a shit idea but seems in practice to be a little more effective.

Wow, you've nailed it. All hail likesfish, political genius.

 

[TremulousTetra]

exactly bit like arguing about angels and pinheads meaningless.
No country that claimed to be marxist was a pleasant place to live.
The basic idea might have merit but details fucked it up.
capitalism maybe a shit idea but seems in practice to be a little more effective.

Wow, you've nailed it. All hail likesfish, political genius.[/QUOTE]what is the point of that comment?

 

[Proper Tidy]

what is the point of that comment?

To mock

 

[PeterTCA]

Wasn't that because they had an unaccountable bureaucracy in control rather than the working class? It's got nothing to do with dialectical materialism you ahistorical gibbon.

What's an ahisotorical gibbon? I missed out of course the psychopathological method of dealing with those stepping outside the party lines. The diagnosis of "reformist delusion" swept through the new regimes. There was not waiting list. Thousands upon thousands of dissidents found themselves heavily medicated on psychiatric wards. Writers, artists, poets, found themslves under immediate personal abuse. The practice still continues.

 

[TremulousTetra]

To paraphrase the late Raymond Williams: Concepts like "Dialectical Materialism" and "Superstructure" are fine abstracts for intellectual debate but once you applied them in practice they just didn't hold up. Where Marxism was used to run countries the regimes only lasted so long because they needed massively expanding departments of secret police. They all ended up as one man shows, corrupt, tyrannical and utterly under-humoured.

LOL, the whole point of the thread is that the future CHOICE is dialectical, a classless society or barbarism.

If the repost to Marxism was that simple, it would have been dead and buried 99 years ago.

 

[belboid]

To paraphrase the late Raymond Williams: Concepts like "Dialectical Materialism" and "Superstructure" are fine abstracts for intellectual debate but once you applied them in practice they just didn't hold up. Where Marxism was used to run countries the regimes only lasted so long because they needed massively expanding departments of secret police. They all ended up as one man shows, corrupt, tyrannical and utterly under-humoured.

that is actually significantly misrepresenting Williams, he disagreed with how B&S were used by many thinkers, but agreed with the concept, pointing out that Base is a process not simply a 'thing'. Which is a dialectical point.

 

[TremulousTetra]

To mock

for a change?

 

[Proper Tidy]

What's an ahisotorical gibbon? I missed out of course the psychopathological method of dealing with those stepping outside the party lines. The diagnosis of "reformist delusion" swept through the new regimes. There was not waiting list. Thousands upon thousands of dissidents found themselves heavily medicated on psychiatric wards. Writers, artists, poets, found themslves under immediate personal abuse. The practice still continues.

But it still says fuck all about dialectics you dick. What about the famines, repression, state killings etc that happen outside of Stalinist states - are these not evidence of the corruption and falacy of capitalism? You shitfer.

Also, why is it dicks like you always put 'writers, artists, poets' on a pedestal as if their suffering is somehow more offensive than the suffering of chippies, sparks and postmen?

 

[likesfish]

Marxism would need a super sattchi and sattchi campign to persaude most people it would be worth bothering about.
eastern europe/ soviet union claimed to be marxist
africa couple of shitholes calimed to marxist
China and North korea pretty shit while marxist
and cuba and nicaraguia not exactly paradise
so thats every continent where marxism has sort of been tried and failed Its just appears to beyond peoples ability to go from what was previous to a marxist society without getting mired in some really shitty tyranny.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Marxism would need a super sattchi and sattchi campign to persaude most people it would be worth bothering about.
eastern europe/ soviet union claimed to be marxist
africa couple of shitholes calimed to marxist
China and North korea pretty shit while marxist
and cuba and nicaraguia not exactly paradise
so thats every continent where marxism has sort of been tried and failed Its just appears to beyond peoples ability to go from what was previous to a marxist society without getting mired in some really shitty tyranny.

Capitalism, of course, has an unblemished record.

Would you rather live in Cuba or Haiti?

 

[TremulousTetra]

What's an ahisotorical gibbon? I missed out of course the psychopathological method of dealing with those stepping outside the party lines. The diagnosis of "reformist delusion" swept through the new regimes. There was not waiting list. Thousands upon thousands of dissidents found themselves heavily medicated on psychiatric wards. Writers, artists, poets, found themslves under immediate personal abuse. The practice still continues.

The Greeks, the Romans, the British, the Americans, the USSR, ALL class societies have carried out great barbarities. So what is your point?

 

[Proper Tidy]

Oh noes won't somebody think of the poets

 

[TremulousTetra]

Marxism would need a super sattchi and sattchi campign to persaude most people it would be worth bothering about.
eastern europe/ soviet union claimed to be marxist
africa couple of shitholes calimed to marxist
China and North korea pretty shit while marxist
and cuba and nicaraguia not exactly paradise
so thats every continent where marxism has sort of been tried and failed Its just appears to beyond peoples ability to go from what was previous to a marxist society without getting mired in some really shitty tyranny.

What do you think the word communism means. "commune" "ism".it is quite obvious isn't it?

Now apply that to the societies you have named, and tell me one which is communist, classless.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Pro-working class politics = Stalinism = North Korea, don't you know RMP3

 

[PeterTCA]

But it still says fuck all about dialectics you dick. What about the famines, repression, state killings etc that happen outside of Stalinist states - are these not evidence of the corruption and falacy of capitalism? You shitfer.

Also, why is it dicks like you always put 'writers, artists, poets' on a pedestal as if their suffering is somehow more offensive than the suffering of chippies, sparks and postmen?

Yep. See what I mean. The practice continues. Step sideways from the party line and the personal abuse kicks in.

I don't doubt that other regimes (fascist, capitalists) have their own barbarities. One day we might discover that regimes, vanguards, nation states, and tight wrapped-up ideologies are the real problem.

 

[likesfish]

Thing is there are some pretty decent capitalist societys that allow you to eat and hold political views
ok cuba is better than haiti but then your comparing the absolute worst "capitalist" (not sure if haiti counts as capitalist)
would you perfer cuba or sweden politcal regimnes? (cubas probablay got sweden beat weather wise)
All those places claimed to be Marxist

 

[Proper Tidy]

Yep. See what I mean. The practice continues. Step sideways from the party line and the personal abuse kicks in.

I don't doubt that other regimes (fascist, capitalists) have their own barbarities. One day we might discover that regimes, vanguards, nation states, and tight wrapped-up ideologies are the real problem.

Lol. You don't actually know what Marxism is do you? And yes, I am a member of the CP and I am persecuting you, you massive knobhead.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Thing is there are some pretty decent capitalist societys that allow you to eat and hold political views
ok cuba is better than haiti but then your comparing the absolute worst "capitalist" (not sure if haiti counts as capitalist)
would you perfer cuba or sweden politcal regimnes? (cubas probablay got sweden beat weather wise)
All those places claimed to be Marxist

Haiti doesn't count as capitalist? Ace. Every last one is capitalist, mastermind. And I compared Haiti to Cuba given they are both, geographically and in terms of the historical 'relationship' to the US, in roughly the same place.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Pro-working class politics = Stalinism = North Korea, don't you know RMP3

fuckoff PT. What is the point of your mocking them?

 

[PeterTCA]

Lol. You don't actually know what Marxism is do you? And yes, I am a member of the CP and I am persecuting you, you massive knobhead.

That's the trouble. You don't even know you are doing it.

 

[likesfish]

much like north korea does'nt count as marxist
its such a corrupt shithole and that was before the quake not sure you could claim it was any particular system in place
There are some pleasant capitalist countries that hardly oppress anyone.
Can't think of any of the so called marxists countries that could say the same.

 

[Proper Tidy]

fuckoff PT. What is the point of your mocking them?

Cos they've both a) wrong and b) spouting wrong bollocks that they've nicked from somewhere else. Fucking hell, if you want to waste your life believing you can convert the unwilling then crack on, most of the rest of us aren't so fucking soft.

 

[Edie]

What the hell does Dialectical Materialism even mean?

 

[Proper Tidy]

much like north korea does'nt count as marxist
its such a corrupt shithole and that was before the quake not sure you could claim it was any particular system in place
There are some pleasant capitalist countries that hardly oppress anyone.
Can't think of any of the so called marxists countries that could say the same.

North Korea doesn't even claim to be marxist, they believe in juche. And of course Haiti was and is capitalist, it's why they are in the fucking state they are in.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Yep. See what I mean. The practice continues. Step sideways from the party line and the personal abuse kicks in.

You do though share some culpability for PT’s ire.

Heads up, as far as I know PT is against parties.

I don't doubt that other regimes (fascist, capitalists) have their own barbarities. One day we might discover that regimes, vanguards, nation states, and tight wrapped-up ideologies are the real problem.

Which IS what Marx was saying. So what is your point?

 

[TruXta]

What the hell does Dialectical Materialism even mean?

The opposite of whatever you think it means.

 

[Proper Tidy]

You do though share some culpability for PT’s ire.

Heads up, as far as I know PT is against parties.
Which IS what Marx was saying. So what is your point?

No, I'm not. I'm in the SP.

 

[Proper Tidy]

What the hell does Dialectical Materialism even mean?

It's a club night, mostly gabba. Fancy going?

 

[belboid]

Cos they've both a) wrong and b) spouting wrong bollocks that they've nicked from somewhere else. Fucking hell, if you want to waste your life believing you can convert the unwilling then crack on, most of the rest of us aren't so fucking soft.

You missed out how they ignore any points made that clearly contradict their claims as well. Arguing with them serves no point, it's just masturbation.

 

[Edie]

It's a club night, mostly gabba. Fancy going?

Yep, I'll get my mini skirt n boots on mate