Defamation of character "How can I sue without losing money?"

[sim667]

Ok, I was thinking of in a litigation context. Lots of unions have schemes in place for things like conveyancing and will drafting services at reduced rates, where the cost is pretty predictable and the service clearly defined. I'm not aware of any unions that have a similar arrangements for litigation.

I doubt a union would be able to physically help themselves with anything outside of employment tribunals etc.

Just as a matter of interest OP, how do you know about these emails? Do you have copies of them? Because I'm pretty sure an IT department can make them disappear on the demand of SLT.... it happened at my old college a few times.

I'd have thought that it would be a better route to go to ascertain whether as a result of these emails you were made redundant/fired/or forced out, and then go down an employment tribunal route, in all honesty.

I do miss working in a unionised placed, they wanted me to become the rep before I got made redundant.

 

[Winot]

I am afraid, to answer the question in the thread title, you are very unlikely to be able to sue without losing money. Litigation costs, even if you win. At best, litigants can usually only recover 75% of their costs. If you lose, you will need to pay your costs and up to 75% of the other side's. Unless you are famous, damages are likely to be limited.

The best advice I can offer is to be very clear about what you want to achieve before taking any action. As others have said, your own publicity drive may be the best way forwards.

That said, if you have good evidence and the other side are wary of bad publicity, they might retract and/or publish an apology if they think that you are likely to take action. It is a bit of a poker game. You might need a solicitor on your side to convince the other side that you are serious.

Lawyers are wary of taking on clients who (a) don't have much money and (b) are likely to be irrational in their approach (not saying that you are, but they will be concerned that there is that risk). The 'give us £1000 to even look at this' is a way of seeing if you are serious (and making you go away if you are not). You need to convince a lawyer that you are not (a) or (b). If you do want to explore legal action then I would advise writing a short, factual account with accompanying evidence to brief the lawyer. Get a friend to look at it and don't rant. I would guess that an initial letter from a lawyer might be about £500.

Good luck, and think about forgetting it and moving on.

(I am not a defamation lawyer or a solicitor, but I am legally qualified in a different area.)

 

[Spark]

The OP said they made a subject access request so I assume they have a copy.

It depends on the union and to an extent the officer involved and the actual employer. I've known a few officers who'd definitely be happy to fire off a stroppy letter to an employer in this type of situations. It depends what solution your looking for.

 

[Spark]

Also although most litigation supported by unions is employment tribunal or personal injury most I'm aware of will sometimes pay for civil litigation that's employment related including defamation. Anything that's high risk and going to be costly will be rare though.

(Sorry for derail into union legal services)

 

[Athos]

kingfisher2100 What were you alleged to have been sacked for? What are the possible consequences of the lie they've told about you? Have you asked them to circulate a retraction? Did you email the recipients of the original email with a denial? What exactly did the email say about the circumstances of your departure? Can you prove that what was said about you in the email is untrue?

 

[Orang Utan]

Sounds like the same person who posted this:
Teacher unfairly dismissed DBS Implications

 

[Guineveretoo]

A union will certainly look at defending or taking a defamation case if one of their members loses their job because of it, but only if there is a good chance of winning.

But, as everyone keeps telling you, your first port of call must be your union. Come back if you speak to them and they are not helpful.

 

[andysays]

Yes. I got the email, and tons of other stuff, through Freedom of Info (DP and SAR)- including emails which showed the strong, negative reaction from other people in the organisation to what he'd said. Gave a definite sense that they felt he'd made a big mistake. I'll go through the google list of law firms today. I was just a bit put off by the first firm saying they'd need a grand just to look at it.

IANALB*, surely if you're trying to prove defamation, the fact that recipients of this email reacted negatively and thought the sender had made a mistake will significantly undermine your case rather than substantiate it?

Maybe it's just the way the OP has worded/explained it, but the whole thing sounds like a lot of ill-considered speculative nonsense to me, and about as far from a "stone cold libel case" as can be imagined.

*I Am Not A Lawyer But

 

[equationgirl]

Again, seek specialist advice. A criminal lawyer is not someone who can help generally. It might help if you sort out the paperwork in event order, and write a factual summary timeliness of what happened when.

 

[kingfisher2100]

Wow. Thank you everyone. It's nice to know there are so many people out there who give a $#!+. Will contact my union to see what they can do, in terms of pressure for a retraction first.
(Just for info, there is an employment tribunal claim on-going as well, but they are saying I named the wrong respondent, which was the council, and they are saying it should have been the school. And my OH also has a complaint in with the LEA about intimidation of her during my suspension, and a seemingly related incident where a deputy bullied our son. The NCTL and DBS people have written to me to say they feel the matter has been dealt with locally and I am cleared to teach, but the Head's still unchallenged email said he was working with them to ensure I never worked in a school again. I have good character references from the parents of the children who LSAs said I'd shouted at.)
I like Pingu's comment about eating beans for Christmas dinner. That's the message coming from most of the local lawyers I've googled and contacted "Looks like a strong case. How much money have you got/hideously expensive."
Thanks again, everyone

 

[Athos]

Wow. Thank you everyone. It's nice to know there are so many people out there who give a $#!+. Will contact my union to see what they can do, in terms of pressure for a retraction first.
(Just for info, there is an employment tribunal claim on-going as well, but they are saying I named the wrong respondent, which was the council, and they are saying it should have been the school. And my OH also has a complaint in with the LEA about intimidation of her during my suspension, and a seemingly related incident where a deputy bullied our son. The NCTL and DBS people have written to me to say they feel the matter has been dealt with locally and I am cleared to teach, but the Head's still unchallenged email said he was working with them to ensure I never worked in a school again. I have good character references from the parents of the children who LSAs said I'd shouted at.)
I like Pingu's comment about eating beans for Christmas dinner. That's the message coming from most of the local lawyers I've googled and contacted "Looks like a strong case. How much money have you got/hideously expensive."
Thanks again, everyone

If you're able to answer my questions in post #35, I might be able to give you some useful pointers.

 

[kingfisher2100]

IANALB*, surely if you're trying to prove defamation, the fact that recipients of this email reacted negatively and thought the sender had made a mistake will significantly undermine your case rather than substantiate it?

Maybe it's just the way the OP has worded/explained it, but the whole thing sounds like a lot of ill-considered speculative nonsense to me, and about as far from a "stone cold libel case" as can be imagined.

*I Am Not A Lawyer But

Some but not all of the recipients complained.

 

[Spark]

Most posts weren't about being unsupportive but trying to point out that this is a complicated area of law and running claims is hideously expensive so you may be best off getting advice elsewhere.

Based on the additional information you've provided I'd suggest that the most practical way of dealing with this is via the tribunal claim. If there are any settlement discussions then you could ask to include a retraction, agreed factual reference and undertaking they won't make derogatory statements about you in the future.

Are you represented in the tribunal claim? If so maybe discuss it with them. If not you could discuss this with the ACAS conciliator.

 

[kingfisher2100]

kingfisher2100 What were you alleged to have been sacked for? What are the possible consequences of the lie they've told about you? Have you asked them to circulate a retraction? Did you email the recipients of the original email with a denial? What exactly did the email say about the circumstances of your departure? Can you prove that what was said about you in the email is untrue?

I asked the chair of governors to issue a restorative email, and also involved the LEA. The LEA are 'looking into it". The Ch.of Govs hasn't responded. I was sacked because a governors panel believed a collection of incidents going back 3 years, which had never been addressed with me, were major breaches of the teachers' code of conduct and school behaviour policy. LSAs said I upset at kids. Parents said I didn't. The Head said in his email that I'd been "found guilty on 8 charges of emotional cruelty and humiliating children." I've found it impossible to get teaching work, even with supply agencies because of 'feedback they've received'. Yes, I can prove that what was said was untrue.

 

[kingfisher2100]

Most posts weren't about being unsupportive but trying to point out that this is a complicated area of law and running claims is hideously expensive so you may be best off getting advice elsewhere.

Based on the additional information you've provided I'd suggest that the most practical way of dealing with this is via the tribunal claim. If there are any settlement discussions then you could ask to include a retraction, agreed factual reference and undertaking they won't make derogatory statements about you in the future.

Are you represented in the tribunal claim? If so maybe discuss it with them. If not you could discuss this with the ACAS conciliator.

The E.T. claim has been sent to a big-wig in London to have a look. I'm assuming there might be some attempts at conciliation before it gets to court in January.

 

[kingfisher2100]

If you're able to answer my questions in post #35, I might be able to give you some useful pointers.

See answers added to #35. Though as it's going to court, I don't feel I can say too much more.

 

[Athos]

I asked the chair of governors to issue a restorative email, and also involved the LEA. The LEA are 'looking into it". The Ch.of Govs hasn't responded. I was sacked because a governors panel believed a collection of incidents going back 3 years, which had never been addressed with me, were major breaches of the teachers' code of conduct and school behaviour policy. LSAs said I upset at kids. Parents said I didn't. The Head said in his email that I'd been "found guilty on 8 charges of emotional cruelty and humiliating children." I've found it impossible to get teaching work, even with supply agencies because of 'feedback they've received'. Yes, I can prove that what was said was untrue.

What evidence do you have that you weren't "found guilty on 8 charges of emotional cruelty and humiliating children"? Do you have an outcome letter from the disciplinary proceedings? Or a something in writing to say that they were dropped? If so, it should be the simplest thing in the world to prove what was said about you in the email is untrue, and, accordingly, there ought to be no trouble in getting them to retract. If, however, you left before the proceedings were concluded, such that they were discontinued, the retraction could point that fact out.

 

[two sheds]

Alternatively can you try for constructive dismissal or an employment tribunal?

Sorry to be rude but ignore this as it's irrelevant to the problem as described in the OP.

Based on the additional information you've provided I'd suggest that the most practical way of dealing with this is via the tribunal claim.

 

[Spark]

The E.T. claim has been sent to a big-wig in London to have a look. I'm assuming there might be some attempts at conciliation before it gets to court in January.

Most ET claims do settle and from the snippets you've given here it sounds like the type of claim that often would, with the added reasons I've already given that you can try and incorporate some reputation management. Best to discuss with whoever is already representing you.

 

[Spark]

Sorry my original point stands. The query was about defamation arising from an email that OP discovered after their employment ended and was possibly sent after their employment ended.

You can't run a constrictive dismissal claim based on something that you discover after you resigned, if they had resigned. At best it would be evidence that indirectly supported the case that already existed, eg by providing corroboration of an individual's perception of the person.

Likewise an unfair dismissal claim is based on the decision to dismiss and circumstances at the time, so the evidence available to the employer and procedures followed. Again a post employment email at best may be corroborating evidence, eg of bias.

 

[two sheds]

Sorry

Apology accepted .

<<snip>>

that's all ok - I'm just glad you finally came round to my way of thinking.

 

[Spark]

No apology. All the time people blithely suggest to any employment query "why not go to the employment tribunal for unfair dismissal/constructive dismissal" without having even a basic understanding of what either claim entails.

That is why I will unapologetically flag up when it is a wrong and misleading suggestion in respect of the problem that has actually been asked about.

 

[ViolentPanda]

grabbit and runn

Doesn't Sue work there?