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Darwinists Running Scared

revol68 said:
You've suppplied two

Last chance. Marx again: "We see how subjectivity and objectivity, spirituality and materiality, activity and suffering, lose their antithetical character, and thus their existence as such antitheses, within the framework of society." (1975, 3:302).

Now put up or shut up. I don't talk to people who Welch on their bets, they are beneath contempt.
 
spirituality and materiality, activity and suffering, lose their antithetical character, and thus their existence as such antitheses, within the framework of society

arghhh!!!!!!!!!!

You are an incredible moron!!

Spirituality being part of society, ie being part of the material realm.

You seem to have a problem understanding that words like "material" are fluid and contextual.

I could give you hundreds of quotes from Marx saying he is a "materialist"!

But please will you inform us why Marx was such a huge fan of Darwin.
 
revol68 said:
arghhh!!!!!!!!!!

You are an incredible moron!!

Spirituality being part of society, ie being part of the material realm.

You seem to have a problem understanding that words like "material" are fluid and contextual.

I could give you hundreds of quotes from Marx saying he is a "materialist"!

But please will you inform us why Marx was such a huge fan of Darwin.

I don't talk to people who Welch on their bets, they are beneath contempt. In addition, I don't argue with people who are incapable of defending themselves. You know nothing of Marx, and you are a foul-mouthed, abusive, lying and cowardly prat to boot. I discard you.
 
I really thought arseholes like you were just strawmen set up my people to knock the arts but it seems people like you do exist. Scary.

anyway keep on confusing terminology across faculties and debates.

And one more time what uni are you an academic at?
 
Tourettes Boy Vs The Lecturer.
One, i imagine, built like a prop forward (female all college rubgy team) trying to prove their intellectualism by not physically intimidating little boys, the other a little boy trying desperately to be an intellectual hard man & disguise the lack of any real social interaction. Neither very appealing.

I suspect everything hinges on how 'materialism' is to be interpreted.

Marx was of course not a materialist in the metaphysical sense of the term. He didn't claim that matter is the ultimate constituent of the universe & that there is nothing else in the world. Materialism in this respect cannot fully account for the existence of the human mind & its achievements, of society & its evolution, of history & its progress. Materialism, as a quality so rigidly defined, is incapable of dealing with distinctivley human activity of man's moral, religious, artisitc or intellectual experience. We cannot reduce all social change to the ultimate action of the physical world. If we do so we exchange the guiding force of god with the guiding force of historical inevitability. And neither look too pretty in the bare light of the 21st century. Ultimately marx described 'mechanisitic materialism' (the only variety of materialism he knew) as 'implacable in its logic but hostile to humanity'.


I suspect the leturer is trying to recuse marx from the narrow-minded blinkered gospel according to saint marx & tourette's boy is refusing to let anyone mess with his beloved marx. The idea that either one of them can lay claim to the authentic origins of 'materialism' & the champion of some unique factor that gives them their truth or indeed certainty remains odd.
 
montevideo, surely it is possible to make the claim that 'everything is ultimately physical' while also saying that we can't actually measure and predict everything - both because it is vastly complex, because by 'looking' at it we change it and by 'indeterminancy at the quantum level' (I'm not a physicist so I won't try and argue this last one too much).

It is also possible for someone to take the approach that 'I am going to assume that everything is ultimately physical, but in fact I can't actually prove this on way or the other - in any case my 'proof' would come down to physical observations and measuements, so I won't ever get evidence either way.''

You also say that materialism can't deal with the "moral, religious, artisitc or intellectual experience" - but there is no real conflict between saying "everything is ultimately physical" (or the weaker 'assumption') and discussing ethics, free will, the mind and so forth.

When you say "We cannot reduce all social change to the ultimate action of the physical world." - someone might point out that humans are merely one part of the physical world.

Saying that something was cauased physically isn't to say that it was 'inevitable' - for example: in the national lottery the balls are chosen by a machine - by millions of physical forces as they tumble around. Would you say that the outcome was 'inevitable'? Any experiment to try and 'prove' it would probably fail. Some people might argue that 'theoretically' it could be repeated, but is this more a claim of faith or assertion of a belief than actual evidence? Isn't the outcome 'unrepeatable' and 'unpredictable', but still 'physical'?

People object to the idea that the human mind is 'physical' - but why? We can still value it, can still believe that we think and exercise choice. The human mind 'is what it is' - it can be both valuable and physical. One brain event - neuron firing - can 'cause' another, yet we still have what we call 'free will', make what we call 'choices' and have what we call 'individual identity'. There is no satisfactory explanation of why 'merely being physical' negates any of these things - being 'physical' doesn't render a human brain into a pile of twigs, doesn't claim that it is the same as a pile of rocks. This is a projection of beliefs about the physical world and betrays a deep seated dualism, deep seated cultural beliefs that people bring unexamined to the table, and it also betrays all sorts of assumptions about how 'physical' systems work (usually contrasted against a nebulous and poorly defined 'non-physical').
 
montevideo said:
Tourettes Boy Vs The Lecturer.
One, i imagine, built like a prop forward (female all college rubgy team) trying to prove their intellectualism by not physically intimidating little boys, the other a little boy trying desperately to be an intellectual hard man & disguise the lack of any real social interaction. Neither very appealing.

I suspect everything hinges on how 'materialism' is to be interpreted.

Marx was of course not a materialist in the metaphysical sense of the term. He didn't claim that matter is the ultimate constituent of the universe & that there is nothing else in the world. Materialism in this respect cannot fully account for the existence of the human mind & its achievements, of society & its evolution, of history & its progress. Materialism, as a quality so rigidly defined, is incapable of dealing with distinctivley human activity of man's moral, religious, artisitc or intellectual experience. We cannot reduce all social change to the ultimate action of the physical world. If we do so we exchange the guiding force of god with the guiding force of historical inevitability. And neither look too pretty in the bare light of the 21st century. Ultimately marx described 'mechanisitic materialism' (the only variety of materialism he knew) as 'implacable in its logic but hostile to humanity'.


I suspect the leturer is trying to recuse marx from the narrow-minded blinkered gospel according to saint marx & tourette's boy is refusing to let anyone mess with his beloved marx. The idea that either one of them can lay claim to the authentic origins of 'materialism' & the champion of some unique factor that gives them their truth or indeed certainty remains odd.

Well yes, that pretty much sums it up. I'm left with the image of the Pontypool front row debating Beavis and Butthead, which is stangely pleasing. Shame about the mouse though. I'd add only that Marx's commitment to Hegelian logic means that materialism was literally unthinkable for him. He conceived of the objectification of the subject as the prime ideological effect of capitalism. Postmodernity has vindicated him beyond his wildest imaginings. Indeed, the very hint of a challenge to materialist epistemology will now elict hysterical reactions and accusations of 12-dimensional bunny worship. The history of how materialism became associated with Marxism provides a fascinating example of the power of realpolitik (in this case the crude Soviet line that ws imposed on the International by force and intimidation) to trump intellectual reflection. Someone ought to write a book about it.
 
montevideo said:
Tourettes Boy Vs The Lecturer.
One, i imagine, built like a prop forward (female all college rubgy team) trying to prove their intellectualism by not physically intimidating little boys, the other a little boy trying desperately to be an intellectual hard man & disguise the lack of any real social interaction. Neither very appealing.

I suspect everything hinges on how 'materialism' is to be interpreted.




I suspect the leturer is trying to recuse marx from the narrow-minded blinkered gospel according to saint marx & tourette's boy is refusing to let anyone mess with his beloved marx. The idea that either one of them can lay claim to the authentic origins of 'materialism' & the champion of some unique factor that gives them their truth or indeed certainty remains odd.


Oh deary me, a Womble discusses Marx.

I'm afraid your making a false argument, Marx was a materialist and a pretty ardent one at that. What he rejected was the base materialism of Feuerbach. He wanted to put the active historical sibject back into the material realm. As for claiming the truth about Marx, well im not to concerned about maintaining an orthodox Marxism or any other canon of faith. But I do take issue with someone using Marx to justify their absurd belief in a spiritual sphere distinct from the material world.

But lets not forget the actual point of this thread was PhilDwyer asserting that Darwinists were running scared. he held Darwinists to be crude materialists but what is interesting is that Marx was a huge fan of Darwin, and saw his model of evolution complimenting his own work. How do these two facts sit together?
 
phildwyer said:
Well yes, that pretty much sums it up. I'm left with the image of the Pontypool front row debating Beavis and Butthead, which is stangely pleasing. Shame about the mouse though. I'd add only that Marx's commitment to Hegelian logic means that materialism was literally unthinkable for him. He conceived of the objectification of the subject as the prime ideological effect of capitalism. Postmodernity has vindicated him beyond his wildest imaginings. Indeed, the very hint of a challenge to materialist epistemology will now elict hysterical reactions and accusations of 12-dimensional bunny worship. The history of how materialism became associated with Marxism provides a fascinating example of the power of realpolitik (in this case the crude Soviet line that ws imposed on the International by force and intimidation) to trump intellectual reflection. Someone ought to write a book about it.

Argh!

Once again you seem to think that "materialism" means the objectification of the subject. Materialism and the subject are not fucking mutualy exclusive, as I said before thought and consciousness are the product of evolution and have allowed humans to actively shape their environment.
 
revol68 said:
Oh deary me, a Womble discusses Marx.

I'm afraid your making a false argument, Marx was a materialist and a pretty ardent one at that. What he rejected was the base materialism of Feuerbach. He wanted to put the active historical sibject back into the material realm. As for claiming the truth about Marx, well im not to concerned about maintaining an orthodox Marxism or any other canon of faith. But I do take issue with someone using Marx to justify their absurd belief in a spiritual sphere distinct from the material world.

But lets not forget the actual point of this thread was PhilDwyer asserting that Darwinists were running scared. he held Darwinists to be crude materialists but what is interesting is that Marx was a huge fan of Darwin, and saw his model of evolution complimenting his own work. How do these two facts sit together?

ah the ruddy face & steamed up spectacles of a boy you doesn't like someone using marx the way he doesn't approve.
 
revol68 said:
Argh!

Once again you seem to think that "materialism" means the objectification of the subject. Materialism and the subject are not fucking mutualy exclusive, as I said before thought and consciousness are the product of evolution and have allowed humans to actively shape their environment.

Well man being the evolutionary misfit I think you should think before you say things as if they`re fact.
It is no certainty that conciousness is the pure result of matter let alone evolution. :cool: I think you need to be more openminded on the subject.
 
ah the ruddy face & steamed up spectacles of a boy you doesn't like someone using marx the way he doesn't approve.

oh please take your poorly grasped "death of the author" theory and jump into a k hole.

I have no problem with people interpreting Marx in different ways and using his theories in a creative manner, but I do take issue with people claiming that Marx supports their groundless idealism and it's usbsequent attack on evolutionary theory.
 
Azrael23 said:
Well man being the evolutionary misfit I think you should think before you say things as if they`re fact.
It is no certainty that conciousness is the pure result of matter let alone evolution. :cool: I think you need to be more openminded on the subject.

I fail to see how man is an evolutionary misfit, I fail to understand how there can be evolutionary misfits, unless of course you ascribe some sort of telos to nature/ universe, which raises just as many questions about determinism, free will and choice as materialism does.

Once again an arsehole takes a degree of uncertainty as an invite to invent some ridiculous theory for which so far there is absolutely no evidence.

We are a long way off understanding concsiousness but we have pretty good reason to suspect it is a product of evolution, and is material.

I have yet to see anything to suggest that the mind or consciousness is anything but material.
 
montevideo said:
ah the ruddy face & steamed up spectacles of a boy you doesn't like someone using marx the way he doesn't approve.

You really have to get over these fantasy images you have of other posters Monte.
 
revol68 said:
I fail to see how man is an evolutionary misfit, I fail to understand how there can be evolutionary misfits, unless of course you ascribe some sort of telos to nature/ universe, which raises just as many questions about determinism, free will and choice as materialism does.

Once again an arsehole takes a degree of uncertainty as an invite to invent some ridiculous theory for which so far there is absolutely no evidence.

We are a long way off understanding concsiousness but we have pretty good reason to suspect it is a product of evolution, and is material.

I have yet to see anything to suggest that the mind or consciousness is anything but material.

Only because you`ve blinded yourself to what you don`t want to see.

Where has your false certainty got you? As far as what kind of person you are it seems to have gifted you nothing but arrogance, rudeness and a complete ignorance of other peoples perceptions.

I`d love to write a long post documenting the flaws in the evolutionary theory of man but what would be the point? Your too obnoxious to listen, you`d simply pour over it casting scorn and derision, the issue would devolve to another one of your playground spats.

Maybe the fact you cannot conceive of conciousness as being anything but matter is one of the reasons your such an asshole, I can`t imagine any man who denies the existence of his own soul being in any way enlightened no matter how many spoon-feeding textbooks they`ve read.

Get some love in your life.....seriously.
 
Azrael23 said:
I`d love to write a long post documenting the flaws in the evolutionary theory of man but what would be the point? Your too obnoxious to listen, you`d simply pour over it casting scorn and derision, the issue would devolve to another one of your playground spats.
I'd be interested in reading it. Or even a short one.

Maybe the fact you cannot conceive of conciousness as being anything but matter is one of the reasons your such an asshole, I can`t imagine any man who denies the existence of his own soul being in any way enlightened no matter how many spoon-feeding textbooks they`ve read.
I don't see why "matter" can't be valued, respected, loved and so forth. I don't see why I need a concept of a "soul" to describe myself or what is valuable and unique about me or anyone else. Not only do I not see the need for the concept, nor do I see any evidence or logic that suggests I should believe in it as a coherent idea.

On the other hand I would ask what exactly do you mean by "soul". The value of the idea to you and its details - depending on what you mean exactly - is probably in agreement with a lot of the things I think about human beings.

I wonder exactly what you mean by "enlightened" as well. I can only guess at what you mean but I would also hope that I have some of these attributes as well - but again, I don't need to accept the theory of "souls" to subscribe to a whole range of beliefs that you would probably include in your list.

Would you care to explain a bit more fully your thinking here?
 
TeeJay said:
On the other hand I would ask what exactly do you mean by "soul".

This is a repost from a thread a few months ago, but if you think I'm typing all of this again you're madder than a very very mad thing.

The early history of the soul reveals three distinct but overlapping oppositions. One is initiated by the recognition that individual human beings possess an essence, something that defines their identity and distinguishes them from others. This recognition leads to a distinction between this essence and the perceptible appearances in which it is manifested (Aristotle will refer to these as the ’substance’ and the ‘accidents’ respectively).

A related concept of the soul arises from the recognition of a distinction between subject and object. From the fact that we have experience of ourselves, human beings deduce the existence in us of something that is experienced (an object) and something that experiences (a subject), and the soul is often identified with the latter pole of this opposition.

By the time of Plato, a third conception of the soul had emerged, characterized by its immaterial or spiritual nature, and contrasted with the material flesh of the body. These dichotomies (essence/appearance, subject/object, spirit/flesh) are not mutually exclusive, of course, and much ancient thought shows the influence, in varying degrees, of all three conceptions of the soul: as substance, as subject and as spirit.

Got more, if you want it.
 
So I've only read te last couple of pages, but Revol seems to be talking the most sense. However, by the time any thread gets to beyond 5 pages 'sense' hardly matters. Shall I go and find some old posts of Phildewer so we can construct some kind of vicious personal attack?

And BTW, you can't say 'welch', that's rascist :mad: :mad:
 
Or, if you're tired of my deathless prose, try the remarkably accurate lyrics of the Mr. T Experience, "The History of the Concept of the Soul"

"Homer didn't have a comprehensive word for mind.
the psyche and the conscious self had not yet been combined.
He understood events as repetition of the past,
and individual consciousness was not a part of that.
But early Greek thought played a role in the complicate history
of the concept of the soul.

By the time of Plato these ideas had taken shape.
The Phaedo and Timaeus are works which demonstrate
the consious separation of the knower from the known
and the dual nature of the body and the soul.
Modern thought was possible:
the complicated history of the concept of the soul.
Whoa!

Pythagoras and Orphic doctrines all came into play,
because Plato was a mystic in his own Platonic way.
The pre-Socratic Naturalists saw things in terms of "stuff".
But Plato's metaphysics showed that this was not enough.
This is the incredible complicated history of the concept of the soul.
Rock and roll."
 
Ok rather than spend an eternity writing a savagely long post, I`ll just cut n` paste a sum-up online from the chapter of a book I found very interesting.


"Many scientists believe that language is the key to mankind's great leap forward, since it uniquely enables us to communicate and transfer ideas and experiences from one generation to the next. Until recently, this leap forward was associated with the behavioural changes which swept Europe around 40,000 years ago. Then, in 1983, there came the shocking discovery of the 60,000-year-old Neandertal hyoid bone which proved that Neandertal could talk.

The origin of human language capability remains a controversial subject and raises more questions than answers. Daniel Dennett sums up the state of confusion:

... work by neuroanatomists and psycholinguists has shown that our brains have features lacking in the brains of our closest surviving relatives, features that play crucial roles in language perception and language production. There is a wide diversity of opinion about when in the last six million years or so our lineage acquired these traits, in what order and why.

Most scientists now believe that Homo sapiens had speech from its very beginning. Studies of human mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) suggest that, since speech is widespread today, it must have developed from a genetic mutation in 'mitochondrial Eve' (mtDNA Eve), nearly 200,000 years ago.

The pioneering work of Noam Chomsky has shown that newborn babies inherit genetically an innate and highly advanced language structure. According to Chomsky's widely-acclaimed theory of universal grammar, the child is able to subconsciously flick a few simple switches in order to comprehend and speak the language of its parents, wherever in the world it happens to be born. It is highly significant that Chomsky, the leading world expert in the science of linguistics, cannot see how the human language acquisition system could possibly have evolved by natural selection.

One of the foremost evolutionists, Stephen Jay Gould, acknowledges the difficulties with the evolution of language by effectively admitting that it was a freak or chance development:

The universals of language are so different from anything else in nature, and so quirky in their structure, that origin as a side consequence of the brain's enhanced capacity, rather than as a simple advance in continuity from ancestral grunts and gestures, seems indicated. (emphasis added)

Why did man acquire such a sophisticated language capability? According to Darwinian theory, a few simple grunts would have sufficed for everyday existence, and yet here we are today with more than 26 alphabet sounds and an average vocabulary of 25,000 words.

Moreover, speech capability was not such an easy or obvious target for natural selection. The human ability to talk resides in both the shape and structure of the mouth and throat, as well as in the brain. In adult humans the larynx (voicebox) is situated much lower than in other mammals and the epiglottis (the flap of cartilage at the root of the tongue) is incapable of reaching the top of the roof of the mouth. Thus we cannot breathe and swallow at the same time and are uniquely at risk from choking. This unique combination of features can have only one purpose - to make human speech possible. In all other respects it is an evolutionary disadvantage. Apart from the risk of choking, it causes our teeth to become crowded, so that, prior to the advent of antibiotics, septic impacted molars would often have proved fatal. Just as it is difficult to reverse-engineer the development of the brain and its language acquisition capability, so it is also difficult to reverse engineer the development of speech capability.

Once again, we come back to the mystery of the human brain. We are expected to believe that, within a mere 6 million years, natural selection caused our brains to expand to the physical limits of the birth canal. That is quite an evolutionary pace. And, at the same time, the brain was to acquire an incredibly efficient design with capabilities light years away from man's needs for everyday existence. In the words of Arthur Koestler:

The neocortex of the hominids evolved in the last half a million years... at an explosive speed, which so far as we know is unprecedented.

And here is the biggest mystery of all. We are not supposed to have become intelligent overnight and evolution is supposed to be very slow. Therefore, if we go back one or two million years we should find a semi-intelligent being, using its newly-found abilities to experiment with primitive writing, basic art, and simple multiplication. But there is nothing, absolutely nothing.

Without exception, all of the evidence shows that hominids continued to use the most basic stone tools for 6 million years despite an increasing cranial capacity. This is very strange and highly contradictory. We deserve a better explanation.

Against All Odds

Back in 1954, it was thought that the hominid leading to mankind split from the apes 30 million years ago, and that we evolved gradually into our present form. That period sets an unbiased benchmark of how long evolution possibly should have taken. Following the discovery that the split occurred only 6 million years ago, evolutionists have been forced to assume a much faster rate of evolution to explain our existence.

The other disconcerting discovery since 1954 is the shockingly slow evolutionary progress made by Homo erectus and his predecessors up to around 200,000 years ago.

In summary, the evolutionary graph has changed from a nice straight line into an overnight explosion (Figure 1):



Anthropologists have continually attempted to demonstrate a gradiented evolution from Homo erectus to Homo sapiens, albeit with sharp upward steps. However, their attempts to force the data to meet their preconceptions has been repeatedly exposed by new data.

For example, it was originally believed that anatomically modern Homo sapiens (Cro-Magnon man) appeared only 35,000 years ago and had thus descended from Neandertal who had died out at the same time. At that time, one of the most dramatic events in human history appears to have occurred. Cro-Magnon man suddenly arrived in Europe, building shelters, organising himself in clans, wearing skins for clothing, and designing special tools and weapons using wood and bones. It is to this phase of Homo sapiens that we attribute the magnificent cave art such as that at Lascaux, France, dated to 27,000 years ago.

But it is now accepted that, despite the behavioural differences, the European Cro-Magnons were no different anatomically from the Homo sapiens found in the Middle East 100,000 years ago. Both would be virtually indistinguishable from the population today if dressed in modern clothes. It is also clear that Homo sapiens did not descend from Neandertal as was previously thought. Several recent discoveries in Israel have confirmed beyond any doubt that Homo sapiens co-existed with Neandertal between 100-90,000 years ago.

What then is our relationship to Neandertal? We are used to seeing artists' impressions based on his known characteristics of clumsy limbs and crude features, but everything else, such as the liberal body hair, is pure supposition, designed to give us the impression of an evolutionary continuum. Recent discoveries have led to a major reappraisal of Neandertal. In particular, a 60,000-year-old Neandertal's remains were found at Kebara Cave, Mount Carmel in Israel, with an intact hyoid bone, virtually identical to our present-day hyoid. Since this bone makes human speech possible, the scientists were forced to conclude that Neandertal had the capability to speak. And many scientists regard speech as the key to mankind's great leap forward.

Most anthropologists now recognise Neandertal as a fully fledged Homo sapiens, who for a long time was behaviourally equivalent with other Homo sapiens. It is quite possible that Neandertal was as intelligent and human-like as we are today. It has been suggested that his large and crude skull features may have simply been a genetic disorder similar to that of acromegaly.

As a result of the conclusive dating of contemporary Neandertal and Homo sapiens remains, a new theory has emerged suggesting that both must have stemmed from an earlier 'archaic' Homo sapiens. Several fossils have been found, supposedly of this archaic species, which combine different aspects of primitive erectus and modern human anatomy. It is commonly cited in the popular press that these archaics emerged around 300,000 years ago. But it turns out that this is pure supposition based on a small sample size, preconceptions and guesswork.

What are the real facts? In 1989, an advanced seminar was held on The Origins of Modern Human Adaptations, dealing specifically with the archaic-modern interface. Summarising the results of the discussions, Erik Trinkhaus reported that:

------
 
The key point of agreement in the course of the seminar was that sometime during the later Pleistocene [the last 1 million years], in a relatively brief period of transition, there was a transformation from archaic to modern humans - a transformation manifested in both culture and biology... the transformation from archaic to modern human witnessed not only the reorganisation of the brain and body and a shift in stone working from a simple, expedient technology to a complex and elegant craft, but also the first appearance of true art and symbolism and the blossoming of formal systems of language.

Erik Trinkhaus stated that the primary issue of the seminar was the distinction between late archaic and early modern humans, but on the timing of the transformation he had this to say:

... our control of fine chronology is inadequate for periods prior to the finite limits of radiocarbon dating (c. 35,000 years BP) and from there back through most of the Middle Pleistocene.

A further seminar in 1992 also focused on the question of the transition from archaic to modern. One of the papers presented included the following comment:

The timescale of this transition lies beyond the dating range of C14 and therefore has necessitated the employment of a battery of new dating techniques.

The various papers presented at the seminar were published by Aitken, Stringer and Mellars in 1993 and focused particularly on improved chronological dating methods. Significant progress was reported in a diverse range of new dating technologies - uranium-series dating, luminescence dating (thermal or optical) and electron spin resonance (ESR) - but each suffered various limitations in different circumstances. Nevertheless, many reliable datings, based on these methods (rather than radiocarbon, C14) were presented. Significantly, it was reported that all of the fossils of the archaics were poorly dated and could not be vouched by any of the new technologies.

As for the moderns, the earliest definitive and reliable date was cited as 120-110,000 years Before Present (BP) at Qafzeh in Israel. None of the other dates, published by this esteemed group of scientists, was earlier than 200,000 years BP. The date of the emergence of the moderns could only be guessed at within a huge range from 500-200,000 years BP.

That is the true state of scientific knowledge on the subject. There is no proof that an archaic Homo sapiens existed 300,000 years ago and no proof that Neandertal dates back to 230,000 years ago. The fact of the matter is that Homo sapiens fossils appear suddenly within the last 200,000 years without any clear record of their origins. The Atlas of Ancient Archaeology sums up the situation as follows:

The contemporary history of Homo sapiens (sapiens) remains bafflingly obscure... so little do we know about the approach to one of the great turning points of our global history.

Meanwhile, Roger Lewin, writing in 1984, stated:

The origin of fully modern humans denoted by the subspecies name Homo sapiens (sapiens) remains one of the great puzzles of palaeoanthropology.

Man the Evolutionary Misfit

The appearance of Homo sapiens is more than a baffling puzzle - it is highly improbable, and close to impossible, according to the fundamental principles of Darwinism. Allow me to highlight the scale of these improbabilities.

If we use an ape as the starting point, it is widely agreed that a significant number of big evolutionary jumps are necessary to evolve into a man. It is also widely agreed that mutation is the mechanism by which natural selection works. However, scientists point out that the vast majority of mutations are bad. They also point out that macromutations - mutations which produce big changes - are particularly dangerous to a species and thus unlikely to survive. Furthermore, they accept that even if a positive mutation does take hold in a species, it will do so only in the right circumstances when a small population becomes isolated. In summary, the mutational mechanism must take a long, long time.

It is the combination of these improbable factors and the relatively short period of six million years allowed for man's evolution from the apes, which has caused such discomfort to leading evolutionary scientists such as Roger Penrose, Noam Chomsky and Stephen Jay Gould.

The great power of Darwinism, according to its proponents such as Richard Dawkins, is that, given enough time, natural selection can explain anything and everything. But when it comes to mankind, the lack of evolutionary time becomes a major problem. What are the odds against mankind benefiting from not one but several macromutations in the course of only six million years?

The problem can be looked at another way. One of the central principles of Darwinism is that 'nature never over-endows a species beyond the needs of everyday existence'. So, why was it that, in the complete absence of an intellectual rival, Homo sapiens did acquire a brain which was light years beyond its requirements for everyday existence?

How did the hominid known as Homo erectus transform itself 200,000 years ago into Homo sapiens, with a 50 per cent increase in brain size, together with language capability and a modern anatomy?

According to the orthodox scenario, Homo sapiens emerged suddenly c. 200,000 years ago, and yet made little use of his huge brain for 160,000 years. Then, 40,000 years ago, Homo sapiens seemingly underwent what we might call a transition to modern behaviour. Having swept northwards, he expanded through most of the globe by 13,000 years ago. After a further 1,000 years he discovered agriculture, 6,000 years later he formed great civilisations with advanced astronomical knowledge, and here we are after another 6,000 years sending space probes into the furthermost depths of the Solar System.

It is a scenario which seems utterly implausible and flies in the face of our understanding of evolution as a slow and gradual process. Common sense would suggest at least another million years for Homo sapiens to develop from stone tools to using other materials, and perhaps a hundred million years to master such trades as mathematics, engineering and astronomy. We shouldn't even be dreaming of space probes.

Returning to the study of Sir Arthur Keith, mentioned earlier, how do we reconcile his conclusions with the scientific evidence which shows a 98 per cent genetic similarity between man and the chimpanzee? I would now like to turn this ratio around and ask how a 2 per cent difference in DNA can account for the astonishing difference between man and his primate 'cousins'. After all, a dog shares 98 per cent of its genes with a fox, yet the two animals closely resemble each other.

Somehow we must explain how a mere 2 per cent genetic difference can account for so many 'value added' features in mankind - the brain, language, modern anatomy and sexuality - to name but a few.

Furthermore, it is a strange fact that Homo sapiens has only 46 chromosomes compared to 48 in chimpanzees and gorillas. The theory of natural selection has been unable to suggest how the fusing together of two chromosomes - a major structural change - should have come about in such a short time scale.

Clearly everything is not 'hunky dory' with Darwinism. Yes its general principles are of great value in explaining the evolution of animals and specific organs such as the eye, but severe doubts surround its practical application to man.

These doubts have been continually understated for the simple reason that scientists regard Darwinism as the only alternative to the anathema of Creationism. And since Darwinism must therefore be the key to the existence of Homo sapiens, scientists have forced the theory to fit the facts and vice versa."

Sorry about the length, I`m sure your all used to reading large texts tho :)
 
For all of these reasons, I very much doubt that Darwinian evolutionary theory will still be taken seriously in 50 years time. The only question seems to be what will replace it. If we're not careful, it will be Biblical creationism, which is even less rational than Darwinism, IMO.
 
phildwyer said:
For all of these reasons, I very much doubt that Darwinian evolutionary theory will still be taken seriously in 50 years time. The only question seems to be what will replace it. If we're not careful, it will be Biblical creationism, which is even less rational than Darwinism, IMO.

IMHO it will be replaced with the idea that evolution is not solely confined to matter. We will begin to see evolution as a property of life rather than life simply being a result of evolution....if ya gets me. :)
 
revol68 said:
oh please take your poorly grasped "death of the author" theory and jump into a k hole.

I have no problem with people interpreting Marx in different ways and using his theories in a creative manner, but I do take issue with people claiming that Marx supports their groundless idealism and it's usbsequent attack on evolutionary theory.

but phildwyer is taking marx's early 'humanistic' writings as evidence of his attack on materialism. So he is simply interpreting marx differently. And again it is dependent on how one wishes to define materialism; in refuting feuebach's materialism marx had to deny materialism. This was of course before his own later refined 'historical materialism' (which opens a different cans of worms). If being a materialist is simply to distance yourself from, & hold yourself in opposition to, hegel's spirituality, then we can all be materialists. Simply swearing a lot & getting your glasses steamed up doesn't resolve anything or resemble an arguement of any description.

Again i find both your & phildwyer's fanatical championing of a rigid view of what constitutes marx's materialism unappealing, but probably consistent with the personalities you are.
 
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