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Darwinists Running Scared

Bernie Gunther said:
Intelligent design isn't a scientific theory. It's dressed up as science, but it's actually some sort of philosophical argument and should be treated as such.

I put it to you that the division between "science" and "philosophy" is artificial, historically very recent, counter-productive, and distorting of both disciplines. I don't think one can be understood without the other. I'm sure that one shouldn't be taught without the other.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
Tell that to a Bangladeshi farmer when the entire strech of coast he's living on turns into a bay. source
You misunderstood me, global warming is a result of industrialisation, which is a social issue. ;)
It won`t be science that stands upto polluters, it will be people.
 
phildwyer said:
Secondary.
Well, personally I'd give 'em all a copy of Sophie's World at the age of twelve and thrash them until they'd finished it, but I'm not sure the National Curriculum would stand for it.

Azrael23 said:
It won't be science that stands upto polluters, it will be people.
What in the name of God (or, indeed, Charles Darwin) does this mean?
 
phildwyer said:
But you so obviously need one. You're trying to understand what the soul is using science.
No, I am not.

I am asking another poster what *they* mean by the word soul. I am having a dialogue with *them*.

Your tedious pseudo-intellectual grandstanding and masturbatory self-congratulation might be slightly useful as "background reading" but you are not engaging with what I am saying at all. You seem to not be able to understand what my position is, instead you are just arguing with yourself - rehersing preprepared debates where you assume that I am taking 'position A' and you come out with 'position B'. This probably explains why you don't seem to be able to understand what my position actually is - it doesn't fit into your essay plan, it wasn't covered in your 'theology 101' seminars.
 
Azrael23 said:
You misunderstood me, global warming is a result of industrialisation, which is a social issue. ;)
It won`t be science that stands upto polluters, it will be people.

Will those people do better or worse in 'standing up' without science to help?

Without science, they wouldn't even know there was a problem. Without science they have no hope whatsoever of doing something useful about it.
 
To me the soul is simply our innate essence, it is what exists seperately from the mind.

What is your position then TJ?
 
It's hard to think of another part of human society that has so thoroughly and rigorously spoken out against global warming than the scientific community.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
Will those people do better or worse in 'standing up' without science to help?

Without science, they wouldn't even know there was a problem. Without science they have no hope whatsoever of doing something useful about it.

And when did I say all this wasn`t the case? :rolleyes:
 
TeeJay said:
No, I am not.

I am asking another poster what *they* mean by the word soul. I am having a dialogue with *them*.

Take it to PM then. You can't contribute to a thread and then grouse, quail and snipe when people other than your chosen interlocutor respond to what you say. It makes you look daft.
 
Azrael23 said:
The sum total of chemical energy available to an organisms metabolism, any adaptations are likely to result in an increased use of energy which will have to be deducted or obtained from somewhere.
I'm not sure this is true, sure, if I eveolve a bigger brain I'll need a greater energy intake, but what if I evolve having no arms, that would save energy in the arm-building department.

Azrael23 said:
So your saying that the human brain is the minimum needed for survival? If that was the case then why do we only use a fraction of our brainpower?
No I'm not saying that at all, I'm merely disputing your point that "humans are the only organism to evolve intelligence beyond what is needed for survival".
 
Donna Ferentes said:
It's hard to think of another part of human society that has so thoroughly and rigorously spoken out against global warming than the scientific community.

It behooves them to do so, since they caused it.
 
axon said:
I'm not sure this is true, sure, if I eveolve a bigger brain I'll need a greater energy intake, but what if I evolve having no arms, that would save energy in the arm-building department.

Exactly, its a trade off.

axon said:
No I'm not saying that at all, I'm merely disputing your point that "humans are the only organism to evolve intelligence beyond what is needed for survival".

And I acknowledged it was a hasty claim but that in the end its not all that important as far as my point went. :)
 
phildwyer said:
I put it to you that the division between "science" and "philosophy" is artificial, historically very recent, counter-productive, and distorting of both disciplines. I don't think one can be understood without the other. I'm sure that one shouldn't be taught without the other.

Well, I did study both but I'm not sure it's something that should be at all compulsory. I've seen what happens when you make a bunch of pissed-off science students try to study Descartes and Locke. It was pointless cruelty.
 
phildwyer said:
...And in real life, the Darwinists organize to keep any challenge to their creed out of the academy and its journals...
How much did Darwin know about genetics?

How many current scientists looking at how species came about describe themselves as "Darwinists"?

I don't see how you can characterise whole areas of modern scientific thinking as "Darwinism". We don't call other scientists "Newtonists" or "MarieCurie-ists" or so on. Where on earth are you getting this "Darwinist" stuff from? Is it an internationally recognised term within science itself, or is it an American religious-right term used purely to try and leverage their own non-science and anti-science into schools and universities - a special pleading to try and bully their way through and around the logic and principles of scientific method, to try and get equal footing for their own ideology - but claiming that 'science' is one ideology, and theirs should be given equal consideration - in the science syllabus - as well.

What a load of absolutely fuckwitted, intellectually dishonest sophistry.

phildwyer = pbman after reading a few books :rolleyes:
 
phildwyer said:
It behooves them to do so, since they caused it.

I think you'll find that was capitalism.

And engineering. Almost all the engineering predated the science - in that sense James Watt was right despite himself.
 
phildwyer said:
...people who have been trained to believe in the minfestly absurd notion that science is the only means to objective truth...
What do you mean by "objective truth"?

Who on this thread are you talking about?
 
phildwyer said:
The Baconian methodology which defines modern science...
Oh just shut up.

What fucking subjects have you studied? I presume that you studied science up to the age of 16 at least. You probably could identify a bunsen burner.

But frankly you don't sound like you know much about either science *or* the philosophy of science.

Have you ever heard of Popper, Kuhn, Lakatos and Feyerabend?

Where do you get all this utter shit?

Go and read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theories
and this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology
 
Jo/Joe said:
jesus, is phildwyer still trying to promote goblin creation theories by resorting to dead phlisophers?

And, right on cue.... to TeeJay and others who asked for examples of the kind of ignorance to which I refer--voila!
 
TeeJay said:
Oh just shut up.

What fucking subjects have you studied? I presume that you studied science up to the age of 16 at least. You probably could identify a bunsen burner.

But frankly you don't sound like you know much about either science *or* the philosophy of science.

Have you ever heard of Popper, Kuhn, Lakatos and Feyerabend?

Where do you get all this utter shit?

Go and read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theories
and this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology

Well, I seem to know enough to be able to drive you into something approaching insanity. You have now ceased to make any sense whatsoever. Since you question my academic credentials, suffice it to say that they comfortably outstrip your own. Did you actually read the link that Bernie posted? Do so now, and come back if you have anything to say once your debilitating and ludicrous rage has passed. (See you in about three weeks).
 
laptop said:
The theory of gravity is oppressive to the working classes. We need only look at Wells' definition of the classes: those who move objects at or near the surface of the earth, and those who supervise the above. What is is that keeps The Class stuck there, eh, eh?

Moreover the theory of gravity denies the essential telos that is revealed to me by my spiritual experience that you can't contest because it's a private quale, so nyer. The pre-Socratics had it right when they said that apples want to be closer to the Earth, just as Joe Hill had it right when he sang of Big Rock Candy Mountain - and, again I ask, what is it that's keeping The Class from soaring thereon?

Furthermore, the theory of gravity was foisted upon humanity by a mad alchemist, a probable Mason, and a paid-up member of the Ruling Class - Keeper of His Majesty's Mint, no less - and was inspired by the observations of a known Catholic who was ipso facto a believer in Papal infallibilty and therefore an intellectual authoritarian. I can argue until the cows come home about history and literary inspiration, so don't you come bullying me with your determinist empiricalist
F = G * m1 * m2 / d^2 malarkey.

I therefore wish the theory of gravity out of existence. Any suggestion that I should rather seek ways in which The Class may liberate itself in the presence of this malign force is defeatism of the worst stripe, and offends my religious beliefs - for I Am and my telos is to destroy all wrong thought. (But I'm not a Descartean idealist. Ooops.)

If you do not immediately grasp the validity of this argument it's because you're stupid. Read some Kant. No, read it all.
top job :D
 
TeeJay said:
What do you mean by "objective truth"?

Who on this thread are you talking about?

To be honest, TeeJay, I think its probably best if I don't tell you what "objective truth" means just at the moment. You appear to be in some considerable distress, and I have no wish to be responsible for any exacerbation. Who on this thread am I talking about? You.
 
Because TeeJay and others have failed to read it, and because it has now become buried beneath the usual Deluge of Deranged Darwinist Dipsticks, I'm reposting an extract from the link Bernie provided to Robert Appleyard's excellent article in yesterday's _Sunday Times_. Sums up the current state of debate very nicely, I feel.

"This usually cold war has now entered a very hot phase. The militant atheists have been enraged by the fact that President George W Bush has said “intelligent design” is as likely an explanation as evolution. Meanwhile, intelligent design (ID) is being studied and developed in some respected universities.

The truth of what is going on here is complex yet vital. The average newspaper reader and television viewer in Britain has, thus far, had no chance of understanding why. The BBC, for instance, presents anything but the strictest neo-Darwinian orthodoxy as clear evidence of insanity.

Knots need to be unpicked. First, the world is purposefully designed. Sharks have teeth to capture their prey and trees have leaves to capture sunlight. In the absence of any competing hypothesis, it is rational to assume that an intelligence, God perhaps, is at work.

Enter Darwin. He said that, once a stable replicative process is established in nature, then errors will occur. A few beneficial errors will render replicators — organisms — better adapted and, therefore, better able to reproduce. Over billions of years, this simple process will lead to the variety of life we see around us today. Note that Darwin did not say how this system works nor how it began. He had no idea.

Since then, we have begun to understand how evolution works. DNA is the replicator at the heart of the system and errors in the transcription of this molecule result in mutations, most of which are harmful but some of which are beneficial. The combination of Darwinism and molecular biology has created the orthodoxy known as neo-Darwinism.

None of which has — or should have — the slightest consequence for religious belief. Indeed, to a Taoist, Hindu or Buddhist, Darwinism must appear irrelevant, trivial or obvious. Even a Christian shouldn’t really be bothered. Of course, Darwinism shows the Bible is not literally accurate if only because it requires the earth to be billions rather than thousands of years old — but treating biblical stories as metaphors, not literal truths, is a commonplace of Christian theology.

Darwinism did not, as we are sometimes told, “explain life”. What the theory explains is what happens once life, or at least replication, gets going. Darwin did not know how replication began and, contrary to what you may think, neither do we."
 
And, right on cue.... to TeeJay and others who asked for examples of the kind of ignorance to which I refer--voila!

You offer nothing new and cannot refute arguments put to you a while back. This is another thread going nowhere. Maybe I'm ignorant on some things, but I'm rational. You aren't.
 
Jo/Joe said:
You offer nothing new and cannot refute arguments put to you a while back. This is another thread going nowhere. Maybe I'm ignorant on some things, but I'm rational. You aren't.

You do this all the time, and on many different topics. You seem to enjoy jumping into threads you obviously haven't read, saying something useless and pathetic, and buggering off again. I believe its called being a "reactive poster," although I can think of a few better descriptions. What is your agenda?
 
Try googling "Bryan Appleyard Holocaust Denial", but be careful which links you follow because most of the places carrying the article in question are on obvious neo-nazi sites.
 
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