Crossrail 2- consultation begins

[Dogsauce]

Such services used to exist, using the overground route via Kensignton Olympia. You used to be able to take a train from Brighton to Glasgow. No Crosscountry on that route since 2008 http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/3749781.Train_services_from_Brighton_withdrawn/-title=Train/

I can remember the Kensington route, think I might have taken one of those trains north when I was working on Imperial Wharf years ago (I had open return tickets from my employer so explored as many route possibilities as I could when going home at weekends - MML, WCML to Tamworth then via Derby, Hertford Loop etc.).

Hadn't realised those services had stopped, but they were WCML trains so always required a change in Birmingham, which was never advantageous for me given the slow speed of cross country services. I'd love to be able to get to Brighton in about 3 and a bit hours.

 

[Dogsauce]

I think they're doing Gatwick and Brighton to Bedford and King's Lynn soon, everyone's favourite destinations north of London.

There are some in London who probably think that counts as the North!

 

[Bungle73]

No chance of this (or the Thameslink upgrade) allowing some direct services from the north to Gatwick, Brighton or other destinations beyond London? A direct and fast Leeds-Brighton service would be pretty good, as would having a range of drop off points within London for express services from elsewhere (like the National Express coaches).

(I expect the limitations on doing this might be platform length and dwell times for express services, but would be nice if one of the 'open access' operators had a crack at something like this - though I assume the cosseted London Commuter will take priority for available paths)

The trouble with that is they'd have to build trains specifically to run that service, as the railway to the south of London isn't overheard electrified. Would you want to travel from Leeds to the south of London on a 319??

I think they're doing Gatwick and Brighton to Bedford and King's Lynn soon, everyone's favourite destinations north of London.

They've been running to Bedford ever since the Thameslink route opened. The new destinations are King's Lynn and Peterbororugh

 

[Crispy]

Hadn't realised those services had stopped, but they were WCML trains so always required a change in Birmingham, which was never advantageous for me given the slow speed of cross country services. I'd love to be able to get to Brighton in about 3 and a bit hours.

Currently 4 and a bit hours if you change at KingsX/St.P

Can't imagine it'd be much quicker with a direct service. The Thameslink route would just cut out the transfer time, so maybe 3h45.

The Kensington cross-London route is a bugger to get to from the East Coast line. You'd have to use the freight link to the North London Line and that's a really busy railway. You'd be lucky to make it under 5 hours, I reckon.

And that's ignoring the rolling stock issues. You'd have to do it in a diesel train. Blech.

 

[Dogsauce]

The trouble with that is they'd have to build trains specifically to run that service, as the railway to the south of London isn't overheard electrified. Would you want to travel from Leeds to the south of London on a 319??

I'm sure the Hull Trains or Grand Central stock would cope

 

[Winot]

Such services used to exist, using the overground route via Kensignton Olympia. You used to be able to take a train from Brighton to Glasgow. No Crosscountry on that route since 2008 http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/3749781.Train_services_from_Brighton_withdrawn/-title=Train/

I seem to remember we got a Motorail to Cornwall from there in the 1970s.

 

[Crispy]

I seem to remember we got a Motorail to Cornwall from there in the 1970s.

You would have done
The loading shed is now a Europcar rental

 

[Dogsauce]

'Newton Abbot - the gateway to the west'

I remember seeing those Motorail trains running along the line at the top of my road in Ashton Vale. I wonder how many windscreens got bricked off overbridges?

 

[Bungle73]

I'm sure the Hull Trains or Grand Central stock would cope

I'm petty sure diesel stock wouldn't be allowed to use the Thameslink tunnels, due to the confined space.

 

[Crispy]

Hybrid IEP (damn its mongrel hide) should be able to do it when it comes.
Not that such a service would ever run, of course. There will be 24tph through the Thameslink core. No space for intercity.

 

[Dogsauce]

I'll have to wait for Norman Foster's radial high-speed railway serving Boris Island for my direct cross-city adventures I guess.

 

[Roadkill]

I'm sure the Hull Trains or Grand Central stock would cope

I suspect Bungle73 is right that they wouldn't be allowed to, even if running long-distance trains through the Thameslink route is feasible, which it probably isn't. Shame, because those Class 180s are unreliable piles of shit, and I for one would love to see Hull Trains get shot of them - although in fairness they will anyway in a few years' time, when electrification through to Hull is completed.

Re. Crossrail 2, I'm dead against the whole project. It's time to stop tipping billions into lifting the capacity constraints on London, and let high prices and congestion there encourage development elsewhere in the UK. There is no alternative in the long run - there's only so much you can pack into a relatively small area - so we may as well get on with it now.

 

[davesgcr]

Such services used to exist, using the overground route via Kensignton Olympia. You used to be able to take a train from Brighton to Glasgow. No Crosscountry on that route since 2008 http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/3749781.Train_services_from_Brighton_withdrawn/-title=Train/

There should have been an hourly Brighton to Manchester via Kensington in the grand plan of Virgin. (Cross Country) - unfortunately , there were poor paths (i.e slow journey times) - and even more tricky - not enough of the Voyagers trains built. As the whole "Beardie" timetable disintegrated elsewhere - the few trains from Brighton to the rest of the world were sacrificed for other places. A bit of a pity really - but the loadings were always very poor in reality. .....(always quicker really to change via Central London - true , but awkward)

 

[hipipol]

I'm petty sure diesel stock wouldn't be allowed to use the Thameslink tunnels, due to the confined space.

They used to mind
Snow hill was built in the age of steam!

 

[hipipol]

I seem to remember we got a Motorail to Cornwall from there in the 1970s.

I remember getting the motorail from there
"On 24th May 1966 the West London Line received a new lease of life with the opening of the Motorail terminal at Kensington, with car-transport services to a wide range of destinations in Scotland, Wales and the West Country. These services ceased in 1988 and the Motorail terminal closed. It’s now used as a covered car-park and the reception area is now the booking hall and ticket office."
http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/k/kensington_olympia/index2.shtml

 

[Bungle73]

They used to mind
Snow hill was built in the age of steam!

There weren't any pax on that route then though. It was freight-only from 1916-1960s when it was closed.

 

[davesgcr]

They used to mind
Snow hill was built in the age of steam!

There were no overhead power lines ! - clearances are substandard , in fact , keenies can spot the fixed bar 25kV at Farringdon. Only loco's allowed are class 33 or 71 with the power off and isolate / earthed. In the early 1960's a retired mate of mine used to man the diesel used to push freights up the 1-29 to Blackfriars from Kings Cross low level - he used to take his airgun to work and in the slack periods whiled away the hours by shooting rats.!

 

[hipipol]

There were no overhead power lines ! - clearances are substandard , in fact , keenies can spot the fixed bar 25kV at Farringdon. Only loco's allowed are class 33 or 71 with the power off and isolate / earthed. In the early 1960's a retired mate of mine used to man the diesel used to push freights up the 1-29 to Blackfriars from Kings Cross low level - he used to take his airgun to work and in the slack periods whiled away the hours by shooting rats.!

they had an 08 as banking engine by the 60s, must have been a dark and dirty job!!

 

[kenny g]

Why they don't just bite the bullet, sell off all the terminal stations for flats 'n' shops and build a grand central station for London is beyond me. A capital city having half a monopoly board full of stations connected by ribbons of lines hardly seems efficient. The grand central station could easily be built somewhere like St James Park which is currently a pigeon shit infested tourist trap.

 

[Crispy]

Why they don't just bite the bullet, sell off all the terminal stations for flats 'n' shops and build a grand central station for London is beyond me. A capital city having half a monopoly board full of stations connected by ribbons of lines hardly seems efficient. The grand central station could easily be built somewhere like St James Park which is currently a pigeon shit infested tourist trap.

Wind the clock back 150 years and force parliament to allow such a thing and it might just happen.
Today it would be almost impossible. Too much development inside the circle line, above and below ground. No room outside the cirle line to knit the mainlines together. It would cost 100s of billions. And think of how rammed the underground would be trying to get in and out of it. You think Victoria is bad in the mornings? Try London Central at 8:45 as 1,000,000 people try and get on a tube.

London's rail system is an unplanned mess, but it's too late now for grand schemes. We've got to work with what we've got, which means Crossrails to tie together the commuter lines (like Paris did decades ago). Sorting out South London's railways into a proper Metro should come next. Get the Intercity and Local services separated so the latter can run at tube-like frequencies. Build interchange stations where lines cross. It's a generational project but needs to be done if London keeps growing like this.

Or just stop feeding the London monster, as roady says. I don't see anyone stepping up to the chancellor's desk with that policy :-/

 

[Bungle73]

There was plenty of development inside what is now the Circle line when the major termini were built, they just demolished whatever was in the way (usually poor people's houses). And how many platforms would a single station need to cope with every single train that runs into central London? A lot, that's for sure!

 

[Belushi]

Building on St James Park is a ludicrous idea.

What we need to do is demolish the British Library and extend Euston until it links up to Kings Cross/St Pancras. Voila! Euston Cross.

 

[free spirit]

So London's to get another obscene amount of money spent on yet more tube lines, while in Leeds we're basically laughed at when anyone suggests that what we actually need in this hugely congested city is an upgrade local rail / underground system as that'd be far too expensive.

nope, we get fobbed off with some shite trolleybus scheme that's apparently all London can spare to spend on us, which will probably just make the situation worse as there's no room for it to fit on the road anyway.

 

[Crispy]

Demolishing poor peoples' houses is easy (and profitable!). Demolishing a couple of postcodes' worth of Central London is another matter

There was plenty of development inside what is now the Circle line when the major termini were built, they just demolished whatever was in the way (usually poor people's houses). And how many platforms would a single station need to cope with every single train that runs into central London? A lot, that's for sure!

There are currently 152 terminus platforms in zone 1.

PAD 14, MAR 6,EUS 18, STP 15, KGX 12, MOG 2, LST 18, FST 4, LBG 9, CST 7, BFR 2, CHX 6, WAT 20, VIC 19

So London's to get another obscene amount of money spent on yet more tube lines, while in Leeds we're basically laughed at when anyone suggests that what we actually need in this hugely congested city is an upgrade local rail / underground system as that'd be far too expensive.

nope, we get fobbed off with some shite trolleybus scheme that's apparently all London can spare to spend on us, which will probably just make the situation worse as there's no room for it to fit on the road anyway.

It's a positive feedback loop. London has good enough PT to be heavily used, so it gets crowded, so it gets improved, which makes London attractive business which means the PT gets heavily used etc. etc.

From a financial POV it makes perfect sense. Invest in London and get double your money. Invest in Leeds and only get 1.5x (for example). Quality of life? I'm sorry can you put a £ figure on that?

 

[free spirit]

It's a positive feedback loop. London has good enough PT to be heavily used, so it gets crowded, so it gets improved, which makes London attractive business which means the PT gets heavily used etc. etc.

From a financial POV it makes perfect sense. Invest in London and get double your money. Invest in Leeds and only get 1.5x (for example). Quality of life? I'm sorry can you put a £ figure on that?

if anyone in power down there understood economics it;d be fucking obvious that spending the money in the regions was by far the better option given that this is where the economic stimulus is required, not fucking London.

And it'd actually start to sort out London's problems, which in large part stem from the rest of the country being fucked, so increasing numbers of people migrate to London for work etc.

Those in power though seem to be in complete denial that there might be any form of link between government infrastructure spending, and local / regional economic impacts.

 

[Dogsauce]

Maybe they could just demolish Euston (it wouldn't be missed) and flog that off, and then build another level under KX/StP to replace it. Admittedly it might have to be quite deep down, but you could open up a nice light well through the fancy concourse at KX. Tunnels out the other side to HS1 and London Bridge. Or more practically perhaps build an escalator to the moon...

 

[Crispy]

Euston's going to get heavily remodelled for HS2 anyway. CR2 would then link it to KGX underground, and finally tie in Euston Square on the circle line. What a monster station that would be.

But they really did build the British Library in an inconvenient place.

 

[Roadkill]

if anyone in power down there understood economics it;d be fucking obvious that spending the money in the regions was by far the better option given that this is where the economic stimulus is required, not fucking London.

And it'd actually start to sort out London's problems, which in large part stem from the rest of the country being fucked, so increasing numbers of people migrate to London for work etc.

Those in power though seem to be in complete denial that there might be any form of link between government infrastructure spending, and local / regional economic impacts.

It's a chicken and egg situation. It's politically easier to accept the free-market argument that London needs money spending on it because it's successful. I think that argument has it arse about face. London is successful in part because it's had so much public money thrown at it, and it follows that diverting some of that money to other parts of the country would boost their economies. Crossrail 2 should be scrapped forthwith and the money invested in better links elsewhere, especially improving connections within the belt of cities and large towns between Liverpool in the west and Hull in the east, electrifying as many lines as possible and buying new rolling stock to replace the old BR-era trains that Northern Rail is saddled with.

 

[TodayIsCaturday]

Euston's going to get heavily remodelled for HS2 anyway. CR2 would then link it to KGX underground, and finally tie in Euston Square on the circle line. What a monster station that would be.

But they really did build the British Library in an inconvenient place.

Kings Cross/Euston/St Pancras needs lots of these:

 

[Crispy]

Oh that is very clever