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Combating hopelessness

Mr.Bishie said:
You really need me to explain that to you? Your last postin this thread are tantamount.
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Tantamount to what?

Can you answer the question? In what way did I opt out. This is an online community, one opts in, presumably, by participating in discussions. How then did I opt out. Simple enough question surely?
 
Mr.Bishie said:
Enough derailing of what is a very informative & constructive thread.

Piss off or fuck off. The choice is yours
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So not only are you a liar you're also a coward. This is pathetic, and you have the nerve to criticise me. You were happy enough to derail the thread when it suited you to attack me, as you've just one. This is exactly the sort of behaviour I'm talking about.
 
I haven't read all of this thread, so excuse me if my points have already been mentioned.
I think that throughout the ages, people have fought for their rights against authoritarianism, unfair exploitation, etc etc, but we live in un-precedented times where these things are happening on a global scale.
Greece got the chance to vote 'no' yet Tspiras was still bullied by the EU into considering another bail out, and now riots have ensued.
Greece's society has been dismantled, a bit like america.
Maybe all western countries will end up like america.
Privatised prisons, profiting from the poor by trapping them in an endless cycle of prison by fining them for minor law violations, sending them to prison because they cannot afford private company probation fees, etc
Homelessness is being made illegal in many cities in america and here, and it is even becoming illegal in many places to feed the homeless.
Victimise the poor and vulnerable until they get too sick and die, or commit suicide, and then make more people poor and homeless by bankrupting the middle classes because they cannot afford medical fees that their insurance companies won't pay out for.

David Cameron even wants to ban protests, unions and free speech, plus he wants to scrap the human rights act.
This will lead to more disease, suicides etc, and more poverty.
I was watching one video by Peter Stafford on youtube, a cumbrian homeless man who makes videos of himself while walking his dog in the cumbrian countryside. He chats with people of all classes including the increasing numbers of upper class people who have come to the area to make money.
I am sorry that I cannot remember exactly which of his videos he mentioned this in, but he said a lot of the pubs, etc in the cumbrian countryside have been gentrified, and he has heard upper class clientelle talk about de-population on many occasions.
There are too many people on the earth, said Henry Kissinger.
They are no longer needed, as manufacturing has been outsourced to third world countries.
You get the rich living alongside the poor in places like Mumbai, but the poor are dirt poor.
Corporatism has taken over, money is all that matters. Bollocks to the damage that the pursuit of wealth and power has done to the earth.

How are we going to fight if free speech and protests are banned?
I don't like to think anything is hopeless, but I just don't know how we can fight against this scourge.
It is especially dispiriting to see exploited workers, etc, accepting their miserable fate because they have no choice if they have families to feed.
The corporate beast is abusive and puts people in a catch 22 situation where they have to accept bad conditions in order to keep their jobs.
The people who are homeless cannot sleep on the street in cities, where they have most access to help, yet there is not enough housing or homeless services. Kind people are not allowed to feed them, so they are stuck, damned if they do, damned if they dont.

I think the big money power machine has grown too big, and in times gone by we could fight it, but I am not so sure now.

I think the tories are even making it harder for labour or any other parties to get in power.
Big business has bought out politics and it is big business who run the world now.
People are seen as expendable containers, and as comodities, and when they are too sick to work, they are no longer profitable, so the governments don't really care what happens to them.
I dunno, but I think things like empathy and compassion are becoming out-dated, and there is less and less chance for people to get back on their feet after falling on hard times, ie, cutting back on services etc.

I do feel it is pretty hopeless to be honest, given the above, but again, I apologise if any of this post has already been discussed.
 
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zxspectrum said:
Then your definition of a community is very different to mine.

But it's not really relevant is it. It doesn't change the fact that people on here, despite claiming to care about issues pertaining to welfare, justice and all the rest of it, don't care to extend those principles to everyone. When you're happy to sniff and sneer at people who are on the same page as you then you are no better than the people you criticise. It is divide and rule which you and i both know is the oldest trick in the book and it's really sad to see a community of the left (or whatever word you care to use) fall for it so willingly.
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This is exactly why I started this thread. I'm looking for some hope that 'we' are not so divided that 'they' will always rule us. Please everyone lets have some respect for each other here.

I don't like the scraps I see about nothing very much on these boards either. I want a different sort of dialogue. Something more constructive. I'm sorry you felt the same need to lay into other posters here on this thread and attempt some sort of bun fight - there are plenty of other places on the forum for that. I'm sorry that it took a banning to stop it.

gimesumtruf said:
Does this mean it'll be free to watch robot wars.
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Which forum was that meant for? Please no more derails
 
Greebo said:
You can now - you just "start a conversation" then "invite" (ie add in) anyone you'd like to be there.

You can set it so that only the OP can add people, or (more risky) so that anyone already there can add anyone.

Anyone can choose to "leave the covnersation" ie not see it anymore at any time.

Bear in mind that PMs aren't moderated, so it might be a good idea to set up some ground rules.
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Lets discuss what sort of ground rules people would be prepared to accept.
 
ice-is-forming said:
I started and sustained a womens consciousness raising group in the early 80's. These days i like the idea of recovery orientated values to promote change and provide people with relationships that enable hope, personal and community empowerment, change & growth.

Building healthy communities starts at grass roots level; assess needs, plan, implement & evaluate. I've had some success in a small rural town here that is slowly dying due to federal and local government decisions & actions. I now work with a small army (well around 30 of us atm :D ) who i have managed to get funding/grants for to train in various aspects that can benefit the most vulnerable in this community. We all support each other and our numbers are steadily growing. I could step away from this 'project' now and it would run without my input, independent of the organisation that I work for. We are making an impact and are starting to be asked for input into local council meetings and decision making :cool:
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I would love to hear more - how did you start and how did you organise? - was it friends and neighbours getting to gether to deal with a local issue?

What does 'recovery orientated values' mean?
'assess needs, plan, implement & evaluate' is self explanitory but sounds very much like management jargon to me - what do you mean?
You mention an organisation that you work for - are you/your group paid or funded to organise things?

I'm having trouble seeing how national or local issues can be tackled - how to look at the problems ahead in any positive way? I'm seeing plenty of local opposition to local issues but no 'community empowerment'.
 
Which forum was that meant for? Please no more derails[/QUOTE]

This is the last thread I would derail, please believe that.
I am very sorry this has happened, it happened on another thread also. I'd better stop posting because I dont know how it's happening.

I apologise.
 
bingiman said:
Don't pretend you have all the answers. One of the problems with politics is the need (discredited elsewhere) to come up with all the answers at the very beginning of the process of change.

Our goal is too big to imagine victory. Break the big problem, (in this case the system) into lots of small problems and come up with easy things you can do that will make a change.

As someone said earlier on in the thread if there is enough of us we can't all be down or up at the same time. We need you and people like you. Don't give up. This is a long haul.
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I think this is really important that we all bear this in mind in mind. Lets keep talking.
 
ChrisD said:
I'm sure I have a lot of common cause with them but their academic sociological language puts me off (& I have 3 degrees).
<snip>
I haven't quite given up but I've lost my enthusiasm. Come on Urban - revitalize me please!
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I think we're all need in need of some revitalising.

Having read a bit more of the Plan C stuff I find it academic too, and sounds a bit 'party' though they say they don't want to be. I dislike jargon, management speak, psycho-babble and stuff that sounds like someone's homework. But there are lots of ideas there I'd like to explore and hear more about.

I really like the idea of small consciousness raising groups again though - to chat about lefty /socialist ideas, talk about our personal experiences, get to know and trust a small group of people and support each other in the various actions we're already doing.

In a lot of ways Urban is already doing this for me, but I would like a conversation here without interuption, nonsense, abuse, derails, personal attacks, etc.
 
I like the idea of consciousness raising groups. I have an article about a women's one in Clapham in the 1970s (it's a bit academic but let me know if you would like a read). I think it would be good to chat about ideas and supporting actions without the arguments/ disagreements that go on here.
 
boohoo said:
I like the idea of consciousness raising groups. I have an article about a women's one in Clapham in the 1970s (it's a bit academic but let me know if you would like a read). I think it would be good to chat about ideas and supporting actions without the arguments/ disagreements that go on here.
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yes. Did you see #99 upthread? good link
 
These are some extracts from interview with Joshua Stephens on *Self and Determination: an inward look at collective liberation* and link to audio recording of presentation Joshua gave at London Action Resource Centre in 2012 , which I was at.

Really, we're coming face to face with the fact that we're fragile. We break. We've happily deployed these effects of capitalism as a discursive indictment of the status quo, but I think we've largely avoided thinking about it as our status...

Therein, impulses and inclinations that might strike us as utterly apolitical are often of profound political consequence, and can even be the levers by which powerful institutions derail resistance.
I wanted to encourage people to reconsider practices of the self as more than some shitty, individualizing navel-gazing. I wanted to suggest that they are an act of refusal....

...When we look at ourselves, the complexity we allow for and observe is such that it can overwhelm and intimidate us, really.
So, we kick that monster back under the bed, and resume smashing the state or whatever.
We distinguish these spheres with such intensity that they appear subject to two entirely different regimes of logic.
It shouldn't shock us, at all, that people whose lives are policed by institutionalized oppression and violence individualize and internalize that.

Thanks to things like feminist consciousness-raising groups and other illustrations of the collective experience of these things, we can now recognize and see our way through the stories we're taught to tell ourselves about oppression.
But the internal/external distinction generally is no less a story.
https://indyreader.org/content/self...ctive-liberation-conversation-joshua-stephens
 
friendofdorothy said:
I would love to hear more - how did you start and how did you organise? - was it friends and neighbours getting to gether to deal with a local issue?

What does 'recovery orientated values' mean?
'assess needs, plan, implement & evaluate' is self explanitory but sounds very much like management jargon to me - what do you mean?
You mention an organisation that you work for - are you/your group paid or funded to organise things?

I'm having trouble seeing how national or local issues can be tackled - how to look at the problems ahead in any positive way? I'm seeing plenty of local opposition to local issues but no 'community empowerment'.
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assess, plan, implement, and evaluate aren't managerial jargon :) they form the basis of changing something that looks huge and too hard into small achievable goals. its used in nursing, setting up community projects, changing policies etc...with out assessing the needs you can't make plans,implement them, and achieve then evaluate how you did. it provides a matrix for change

Recovery orientated values come from recovery focused mental health practice. I've found that using and promoting these values whilst trying to improve the health of a local community work really well. below it explains how these principles work for an individual. but replace the individual with community and you'll see what i'm getting at? recovery is about empowerment and hope.

1. Uniqueness of the individual
Recovery oriented mental health practice:
  • recognises that recovery is not necessarily about cure but is about having opportunities for choices and living a meaningful, satisfying and purposeful life, and being a valued member of the community
  • accepts that recovery outcomes are personal and unique for each individual and go beyond an exclusive health focus to include an emphasis on social inclusion and quality of life
  • empowers individuals so they recognise that they are at the centre of the care they receive.Top of page
2. Real choices
Recovery oriented mental health practice:
  • supports and empowers individuals to make their own choices about how they want to lead their lives and acknowledges choices need to be meaningful and creatively explored
  • supports individuals to build on their strengths and take as much responsibility for their lives as they can
  • ensures that there is a balance between duty of care and support for individuals to take positive risks and make the most of new opportunities.
3. Attitudes and rights
Recovery oriented mental health practice:
  • involves listening to, learning from and acting upon communications from the individual and their carers about what is important to the individual
  • promotes and protects an individual’s legal, citizenship and human rights
  • supports individuals to maintain and develop social, recreational, occupational and vocational activities which are meaningful to them
  • instils hope in an individual about their future and ability to live a meaningful life.
4. Dignity and respect
Recovery oriented mental health practice:
  • involves being courteous, respectful and honest in all interactions
  • involves sensitivity and respect for each individual, especially for their values, beliefs and culture
  • challenges discrimination wherever it exists within our own services or the broader community.Top of page
5. Partnership and communication
Recovery oriented mental health practice:
  • acknowledges that each individual is an expert on their own life and that recovery involves working in partnership with individuals and their carers to provide support in a way that makes sense to them
  • values the importance of sharing relevant information and the need to communicate clearly
  • involves working in positive and realistic ways with individuals and their carers to help them realise their own hopes, goals and aspirations.
6. Evaluating recovery
Recovery oriented mental health practice ensures and enables continuous evaluation at several levels:
  • Individuals and their carers can track their own progress.
  • Services demonstrate that they use the individual’s experiences of care to inform quality improvement activities.
  • The mental health system reports on key outcomes that indicate recovery. These outcomes include housing, employment, education, social and family relationships, health and well being.

1. Uniqueness of the individual
Recovery oriented mental health practice:
  • recognises that recovery is not necessarily about cure but is about having opportunities for choices and living a meaningful, satisfying and purposeful life, and being a valued member of the community
  • accepts that recovery outcomes are personal and unique for each individual and go beyond an exclusive health focus to include an emphasis on social inclusion and quality of life
  • empowers individuals so they recognise that they are at the centre of the care they receive.Top of page
2. Real choices
Recovery oriented mental health practice:
  • supports and empowers individuals to make their own choices about how they want to lead their lives and acknowledges choices need to be meaningful and creatively explored
  • supports individuals to build on their strengths and take as much responsibility for their lives as they can
  • ensures that there is a balance between duty of care and support for individuals to take positive risks and make the most of new opportunities.
3. Attitudes and rights
Recovery oriented mental health practice:
  • involves listening to, learning from and acting upon communications from the individual and their carers about what is important to the individual
  • promotes and protects an individual’s legal, citizenship and human rights
  • supports individuals to maintain and develop social, recreational, occupational and vocational activities which are meaningful to them
  • instils hope in an individual about their future and ability to live a meaningful life.
4. Dignity and respect
Recovery oriented mental health practice:
  • involves being courteous, respectful and honest in all interactions
  • involves sensitivity and respect for each individual, especially for their values, beliefs and culture
  • challenges discrimination wherever it exists within our own services or the broader community.Top of page
5. Partnership and communication
Recovery oriented mental health practice:
  • acknowledges that each individual is an expert on their own life and that recovery involves working in partnership with individuals and their carers to provide support in a way that makes sense to them
  • values the importance of sharing relevant information and the need to communicate clearly
  • involves working in positive and realistic ways with individuals and their carers to help them realise their own hopes, goals and aspirations.
6. Evaluating recovery
Recovery oriented mental health practice ensures and enables continuous evaluation at several levels:
  • Individuals and their carers can track their own progress.
  • Services demonstrate that they use the individual’s experiences of care to inform quality improvement activities.
  • The mental health system reports on key outcomes that indicate recovery. These outcomes include housing, employment, education, social and family relationships, health and well being.

and yes, atm i work for a large humanitarian organisation. its my job to promote empowerment, independence, meaningful activity, relationships. inclusion and hope for individuals, groups, communities. if you assist to give people back their dignity, confidence, validate their feelings of being trampled on by the government, endorse their instincts... their basic human morals, then this is what (ime) starts the changes from the grass roots up. I've enabled an amazing support network of people who as well as caring and being there for each other, are just gathering momentum with speaking out and organising rallies and marches and protests. Meeting like minded others has given them the strength and justification to be heard. ime people who are 'down trodden' won't fight for themselves but will fight for other people who they come to form good relationships with :)
 
That was quite a long post to digest.

and yes, atm i work for a large humanitarian organisation. its my job to promote empowerment, independence, meaningful activity, relationships. inclusion and hope for individuals, groups, communities. if you assist to give people back their dignity, confidence, validate their feelings of being trampled on by the government, endorse their instincts... their basic human morals, then this is what (ime) starts the changes from the grass roots up. I've enabled an amazing support network of people who as well as caring and being there for each other, are just gathering momentum with speaking out and organising rallies and marches and protests. Meeting like minded others has given them the strength and justification to be heard. ime people who are 'down trodden' won't fight for themselves but will fight for other people who they come to form good relationships with :)
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well done!

assess, plan, implement, and evaluate
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I can understand how that and the processes described can apply to a mental health project, local community projects, or to a health, charity or a work project. I'm mystified how it applies to approaching what I see as an unacceptable state of my nation, of the politics of the the country I live in, or the apathy of so many ordinary people. Assess? - we're all doomed!

Sorry if I'm being flip but at the moment I am angry at exactly this sort of language and jargon being used by my govt, DWP, Atos, councils etc who are not just demonising groups of people (like the ill, disabled and poor) but they are begining to use the language of mental health about the unemployed, as if joblessness itself is a disease to be cured if only those suffering will undergo the right therapy (work for free or work even if it kills you). Information that people desparately need is hidden within public sector jargon, questions on important forms that must be answered truthfully, are confusing. Our govt seems to be applying a similar 'evaluating' approach when it talks about a 'happiness index' - so not content with creating the most unequal society in my memory, it wants us to be happy about it too.

ice-is-forming said:
recovery is about empowerment and hope.
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This sort of phrase may be common in your job, or within mental health services and probably has a depth of meaning to the people you work with. But what does it say but to largely disenfranchised electorate - what does 'empowerment' actually mean?
This thread is looking for some hope - saying 'recovery is about empowerment and hope.' sounds a bit like saying 'cheer up' or am I missing something?
 
Panpete thankyou for that excellent and conprehensive post - you've managed to to mention just about everything that is bothering me too
panpete said:
Corporatism has taken over, money is all that matters. Bollocks to the damage that the pursuit of wealth and power has done to the earth.

How are we going to fight if free speech and protests are banned?
I don't like to think anything is hopeless, but I just don't know how we can fight against this scourge.
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Exactly.
Lets try and find some way to carry on talking and fighting.
 
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