Brixton's trams: archive photos and the underground station that never was

[Mrs Magpie]

Do you know how long it's been a church ?

I don't but they were so proud of having built it themselves (not the outer shell, but the interior). They used to have local businesses but are mostly retired now

 

[Puddy_Tat]

I was expecting you to be impressed with my Chiesa del Redentore Puddy Tat

sorry - my knowledge of italian (other than what i'd find on a menu) is very limited...

 

[Mrs Magpie]

It means Church of the Redeemer.

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

sorry - my knowledge of italian (other than what i'd find on a menu) is very limited...

It means Church of the Redeemer.

I speak no Italian either but used to pass it every day for years on my way to work and see the words up there and wonder what they meant, 'til I googled it one day

 

[T & P]

Question for the train buffs: as I understand it, trains don't like hills and anything bigger than 2% can prove problematic. Is it the same with trams? Only asking because I'd imagine sections of Brixton Hill must have a higher incline than 2%... Or perhpas trams use the power cable for extra grip?

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

from Wiki

From 1891 until the 1950s Brixton Hill was served by a regular London tram service; it was cable-drawn until 1904 when it was replaced by a conventional electric tram.[1] The tram depot at Streatham Hill, opposite Telford Avenue, housed the tram cars, horses and the steam powered winding gear for the cable. It is now a bus depot. Another tram depot remains intact at the top of Brixton Hill. This was designed by London County Council Tramways' architect G. Topham Forest, had a capacity of 30 trams[2] and can still be seen on the Brixton side of Christchurch Road, with tram rails flowing under the entrance gates.

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

More

Brixton Hill was really too steep for two horses to pull a tramful of passengers so an Act of Parliament was obtained in 1890 to enable the London Tramways Company (the new name the Metropolitan Street Tramways Company had acquired after an amalgamation) to construct a cable line. This would replace the horse tram service from Kennington to Brixton Water Lane and would continue to the top of Brixton Hill at Telford Avenue. Cable traction was already in operation (and still is) in San Fransisco; it was first used in this country on Highgate Hill, North London, in 1884. The cable consisted of strands of steel wire wound round a rope, about an inch in diameter. It was nearly six miles long. That is, twice the length of the route. It ran underground between the tram lines through a concrete conduit which had a small open slot along the rope so that the cable could be gripped by the mechanism on the small man-operated tractor or "gripper" car; it was this car that pulled the passenger tramcar. A tramcar going from Brixton Hill to Westminster Bridge would have its gripper car detached at Kennington and replaced by a pair of horses; passengers remained in their seats. The cable moved all the time at a maximum speed of 8 m.p.h. A special depot was built on Streatham Hill opposite Telford Avenue to house not only cars and horses but the steam powered winding gear for the cable. The cable service started to operate in December 1892. In 1894 yet another Act was obtained - to extend the cable southwards to the Tate Library in Streatham High Road; this section was in use by the end of 1895. Cable cars ran until 1904.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Question for the train buffs: as I understand it, trains don't like hills and anything bigger than 2% can prove problematic. Is it the same with trams? Only asking because I'd imagine sections of Brixton Hill must have a higher incline than 2%... Or perhpas trams use the power cable for extra grip?

I think it's as much to do with power and braking power as much as grip.

Some of the gradients on the Docklands Light Railway (the bit where it's pretending to be a roller-coaster round Poplar) are a damn sight steeper than anything you'd find on a conventional railway.

Brixton Hill and Highgate Hill (London's other cable tramway) were too steep for horse trams, but electric trams managed, electric trams also ran on Dog Kennel Hill in Dulwich , and up Anerley Hill to Crystal Palace (not to mention hills in other parts of the UK and elsewhere)

Brixton Hill was probably less severe than Dog Kennel Hill (1 in 10 at its steepest - does this equate to 10%? I've never quite got the hang of expressing gradients in percentages to be honest.) - the latter was constructed 4 tracks wide (hence the road being much wider than most of a similar era) as two trams were not allowed on the same track in case one ran away - accident report here.

The electric trams used on Highgate and Dog Kennel Hill were required to have special braking systems, I think the Anerley Hill ones did as well. Those on Brixton Hill were standard. More on Dog Kennel Hill here

 

[Mrs Magpie]

Ooh, the Brixton Hill Funicular Railway has a nice ring to it, don't you think? It could run all the way from the Italian Church!

 

[T & P]

I think it's as much to do with power and braking power as much as grip.

Some of the gradients on the Docklands Light Railway (the bit where it's pretending to be a roller-coaster round Poplar) are a damn sight steeper than anything you'd find on a conventional railway.

Brixton Hill and Highgate Hill (London's other cable tramway) were too steep for horse trams, but electric trams managed, electric trams also ran on Dog Kennel Hill in Dulwich , and up Anerley Hill to Crystal Palace (not to mention hills in other parts of the UK and elsewhere)

Brixton Hill was probably less severe than Dog Kennel Hill (1 in 10 at its steepest - does this equate to 10%? I've never quite got the hang of expressing gradients in percentages to be honest.) - the latter was constructed 4 tracks wide (hence the road being much wider than most of a similar era) as two trams were not allowed on the same track in case one ran away - accident report here.

The electric trams used on Highgate and Dog Kennel Hill were required to have special braking systems, I think the Anerley Hill ones did as well. Those on Brixton Hill were standard. More on Dog Kennel Hill here

Thanks

 

[newbie]

Just for completeness, these are still in places along the route, but if anyone ever finds one marked up as London Tramways Company or Metropolitan Street Tramways Company please let me know

 

[agricola]

It is not entirely clear whether the current building was the cable car depot, whether it was a re-construction of it, or was built on the site of it. I can't find any photos of the cable car depot as such (i suppose you can't expect too much for pre-1903) but the written description seems to match the current building fairly well.

That has to be a new building at 20 Brixton Road, the central door doesnt look anywhere near big enough for one of the cable trams - at least according to this picture (from here):

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Just for completeness, these are still in places along the route, but if anyone ever finds one marked up as London Tramways Company or Metropolitan Street Tramways Company please let me know

There are also a fair few around stamped "London Transport"

I am pretty sure these were for access to the electric supply cables, so I don't think you'd find any from pre-LCC operators.

That has to be a new building at 20 Brixton Road, the central door doesnt look anywhere near big enough for one of the cable trams - at least according to this picture

You may well be right there - unless they only kept a gripper / dummy there and not the passenger trailer (the earlier method of operation) as per this

 

[agricola]

You may well be right there - unless they only kept a gripper / dummy there and not the passenger trailer (the earlier method of operation) as per this

Perhaps. Actually, if you zoom out a bit from streetview it looks as if the church front is part of a facade - there is what looks to be part of an older building on a different alignment (more north-south than the front is, parallel with the back of 18 Brixton Road) inbetween the newer front and the large structure (the one with what looks like a skylight running along it and the weird angled back wall) at the rear.

 

[newbie]

There are also a fair few around stamped "London Transport"

I am pretty sure these were for access to the electric supply cables, so I don't think you'd find any from pre-LCC operators.

you're probably right but I like the history we walk on every day and if it's there I'd like to see it.

If the dates quoted are correct the Brixton Hill tram started in 1891, a couple of years after the LCC replaced the Metropolitan Board of Works, so the chances of any pre-LCC artifacts of any sort are pretty slim.

 

[lang rabbie]

Does anyone have the Godfrey Edition old Ordnance Survey map of Kennington & Walworth (sheet 89)? Comparison of the 1894 and 1914 versions should show whether there were ever tram tracks into the the "substation" site at 20 Brixton Road.

Infuriatingly it just a bit too far north to be on the Camberwell & Stockwell sheet

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Comparison of the 1894 and 1914 versions should show whether there were ever tram tracks into the the "substation" site at 20 Brixton Road.

There's a drawing in the (detailed) history of the LCC tramways that shows tram-tracks (single track from the south) into the 20 Brixton Road site.

We're pretty sure the site was a depot, but not whether the building that's still there was.

you're probably right but I like the history we walk on every day and if it's there I'd like to see it.

Another faint memory occurred to me - there's another chunk of tramway history visible just up the road on the corner of Prima Road - this - the cast-iron black box thing with the London Transport logo on it is (or was) a "section box" or "feeder box" - the main purpose of these was to contain switches / fuses for each length of tram line.

The bit at the top contained a telephone on LT's private network, for the use of either the point inspector, or in emergency by tram crews (since you can't shove a broken down tram to the side of the road and let others pass it, getting the message saying 'help' through to control is a matter of some urgency, especially if there's more than one tram a minute...)

 

[newbie]

cheers for that, I've been past it a million times, I'll actually look at it next time.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

thread bump...

as is the way on the interweb, having thought I'd got as far as I could on 20 Brixton Road, I found the cable car guy website earlier.

Includes this piece on the Brixton Hill cable tramway

and this picture of the change from horse to cable operation being carried out outside 20 Brixton Road

so I think we can be fairly confident that the current frontage is largely original.

I have also found a reference in the definitive history of LCC Tramways (E R Oakley, 1989) to 3 'gripper dummy' cars being allocated to the 20 Brixton Road depot on take over by the LCC.

 

[SarfLondoner]

thread bump...

as is the way on the interweb, having thought I'd got as far as I could on 20 Brixton Road, I found the cable car guy website earlier.

Includes this piece on the Brixton Hill cable tramway

and this picture of the change from horse to cable operation being carried out outside 20 Brixton Road

so I think we can be fairly confident that the current frontage is largely original.

I have also found a reference in the definitive history of LCC Tramways (E R Oakley, 1989) to 3 'gripper dummy' cars being allocated to the 20 Brixton Road depot on take over by the LCC.[/QUOTE

Thats a great find and very interesting, I will put it up on the general history thread.

 

[editor]

Just added this piece on Buzz:

Brixton history: trams and buses and the abandoned Brixton underground tram station scheme

*threads merged