Brixton violence and looting (7th Aug 2011)

[Emet]

The rate of violent crime in the USA in 2009 was more or less the same as in 1979. Homicide rates have stagnated. And they are still far higher than in Europe. Access to good birth control (ie legal abortion) in the 70s and a massive drop in lead exposure (which is well linked to crime levels) are also important contributory factors. In fact, if you look at the graph, you can easily see that a massive drop in crime coincided with the Clinton administration, and tapered off as Bush 2 came into power.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States

Open up the page. It is a lot higher in 1990 than in 1979 or 2010.

 

[TruXta]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States

Open up the page. It is a lot higher in 1990 than in 1979 or 2010.

You either didn't read or didn't understand what I just wrote. Try again. What connection might there be between the introduction of legalised abortion (Roe vs. Wade, 1973) and a massive drop in crime 20 years later? What connection might there be between the introduction of unleaded gasoline and overall smaller lead exposure from the 70s onwards and a drop in crime in the 90?

 

[Emet]

The states are mostly in control of penal policy, and sentencing. And anyway Clinton was very keen to show himself tough on crime. He approved the execution of a very brain damaged convict, who apparently did not understand the reason for his own execution, during the presidential campaign.

 

[Emet]

You either didn't read or didn't understand what I just wrote. Try again. What connection might there be between the introduction of legalised abortion (Roe vs. Wade, 1973) and a massive drop in crime 20 years later? What connection might there be between the introduction of unleaded gasoline and overall smaller lead exposure from the 70s onwards and a drop in crime in the 90?

No, I disregarded them. I'm not aware that criminology takes either theory seriously.

 

[TruXta]

So you see no connection between birth control and crime, no connection between lead exposure and crime?

I see you answered me. What criminologists think of that you'll have to ask them. That said most criminologists would disagree that longer sentences per se reduces crime. One example of many: Norway steadily increased prison sentences for drug crimes until some of them carried the maximum penalty available in Norwegian penal law. The result? Drug crimes have been rising steadily for 40 years.

 

[Gramsci]

Chukas made a statement:

http://www.chuka.org.uk/2011/08/statement-on-unrest-in-brixton-and-streatham-by-chuka-umunna-mp/

Our Borough awoke this morning to news of looting and violence on our streets overnight, following similar disturbances in Tottenham and Enfield on Saturday.
Last Thursday, in Tottenham, a father of four – Mark Duggan – lost his life during a police operation. As his MP, my good friend and colleague, David Lammy has said, the IPCC must get to the bottom of what happened that day. Mr Duggan’s family subsequently organised a peaceful protest on Saturday only for it to be hijacked by a few thugs leading to widespread violence in the Tottenham constituency.
I, along with my other colleagues, Tessa Jowell and Kate Hoey, represent the three constituencies covering the Brixton area. Last night, a minority of people used the tragic situation in Tottenham as an excuse to loot local businesses and wreck havoc on the streets of Brixton and along parts of Streatham High Road too. The motives of those responsible for this were completely opportunistic and their actions totally unacceptable.
There can be no excuse for such acts and the context in which the unrest occurred here in Lambeth is in no way comparable to the situation in Tottenham where the police are accused of shooting dead a member of that community in the last seven days – it would be a mistake to claim otherwise.
A number of people have also sought to draw parallels between the violence and looting of the last twenty four hours and the Brixton riots of the 1980s. Again, I believe this would be a mistake – police community relations then were at an all time low and we have made a huge amount of progress since. Police community relations in Lambeth now are not perfect (and probably never will be), yet we are in a far better place: there is frequent dialogue and partnership working; Safer Neighbourhood Teams and Panels operate in every ward; and, important institutions like the excellent Lambeth Community Police Consultative Group (CPCG) are regularly consulted.
There will be those who ask, what possesses people to engage in such criminality, to loot, to engage in violence? What is it about their circumstances that fail to inspire them to choose a different course? We should seek answers and address the root causes but this in no way excuses theft and violence.
Questions will also be asked about whether the response of the police was all it could have been and they are currently reviewing the deployment of their resources. We must remain calm and allow them the space to do this.
Finally, in my view many have been too quick to attribute the criminality we saw to young people without waiting for the full facts to emerge or for the police to complete their enquiries and determine who to charge. My understanding is that people of all ages were involved in stealing from the Curry’s in Brixton for example.
It is ordinary people’s lives who have been harmed by these events; the independent shopkeepers who have had their premises looted whom I have spoken to today, the people who struggled to get to work this morning due to the disruption caused and the people who were afraid to leave their homes last night. We stand beside them with a clear message that our community will not stand for this. We will work to bring the perpetrators to justice – they do not speak for us. We live in a wonderful community and we will not allow them to drag us down.

Its better than Reeds. But a few issues with it.

1) The situation in Brixton is different from Tottenham Chuka says --But we keep being told we are all Londoners. People will be affected by what happens in other parts of London. The shooting in Tottenham was a catalyst not an event unique to Tottenham.

2) U cannot compare this with the riots of the 80s Chuka says--What does he know about that as he was born in 1978. I remember the 80s and I think u can draw some parallels. The question to ask is why are so many politicians so quick to say that u cant compare this to 80s?

3) Im starting to find it tedious when politicians go on about "our community" and "our community" that. When what they should say is the people in the local community who I have talked to say that ... Not everyone in the community have the same views as Chuka. Chuka and other politicians should say they have talked to the community and there view (based on talking to some of there constituents) is that..

 

[Gramsci]

Definitely. We left The Albert at 10.30 and everywhere (even House of Bottles ffs) was shut. It's actually rather spooky and given that, last night and the attempted robbery in our building, I don't imagine I'll get much sleep tonight

Ive just been chatting to my Brazilian friend on FB in North London as this all has made her frightened.

Also talked to young ( well I seem to be getting older than a lot of people) woman today in West End office who lives in Hackney. Was chatting to her about the previous riots in London and realised that its all history to a lot of people. She didnt know much about them. But was interested.

Its strange but ive only just realised that Im quite used to riots.

 

[Emet]

So you see no connection between birth control and crime, no connection between lead exposure and crime?

I see you answered me. What criminologists think of that you'll have to ask them. That said most criminologists would disagree that longer sentences per se reduces crime. One example of many: Norway steadily increased prison sentences for drug crimes until some of them carried the maximum penalty available in Norwegian penal law. The result? Drug crimes have been rising steadily for 40 years.

Most indicted crime is committed by poor people in the United Stated. The 1991 US census notes a decline in family size amongst the poor just at a time when crime was rising.

 

[bluestreak]

For some reason I got this email from the Fernadale ward Cllrs. Im not in that ward.and resilient.

Reed can fuck off. He's a coward, showed no balls or initiative in dealing with cuts, he just let it all happen and might as well have told us all to go fuck ourselves. Now the youth are telling us all to go fuck ourselves and he pretends it's nothing to do with him and his crew.

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

Ive just been chatting to my Brazilian friend on FB in North London as this all has made her frightened.

Also talked to young ( well I seem to be getting older than a lot of people) woman today in West End office who lives in Hackney. Was chatting to her about the previous riots in London and realised that its all history to a lot of people. She didnt know much about them. But was interested.

Its strange but ive only just realised that Im quite used to riots.

Someone rang me from Ireland to make sure we were ok. Unfortunately, they misdialled and got through to a Cypriot woman living in London who was absolutely petrified. He advised her from Ireland to stay indoors. She had no intention of leaving the house though

 

[TruXta]

Most indicted crime is committed by poor people in the United Stated. The 1991 US census notes a decline in family size amongst the poor just at a time when crime was rising.

Only to level off a couple of years later and then decline quite dramatically. Really, is that the best you can do?

 

[TruXta]

Reed can fuck off. He's a coward, showed no balls or initiative in dealing with cuts, he just let it all happen and might as well have told us all to go fuck ourselves. Now the youth are telling us all to go fuck ourselves and he pretends it's nothing to do with him and his crew.

My neighbour, who's been hassling him about the new fucked-up development in the old Fulham Timber Yard on Acre Lane, reports that Reed now actively avoids many locals who have various issues with Council/Lambeth Labour policy.

 

[Emet]

Only to level off a couple of years later and then decline quite dramatically. Really, is that the best you can do?

I think you'll find that the decrease in family size among the poor and the increase in violent crime in the US proceed together over decades. The change in sentencing policy began during the 1980's.

 

[chavezcat]

I am so sad to see flats and shops burned, whether it is in Brixton or anywhere in London and beyond. Living in the heartland of Brixton, the absolute best part of my day is seeing the same faces -black or white, latino and arab, south or east asian, and any other combo that is out there. As the oddball American, the worst thing is the disenfranchisement of the formerly incarcerated from voting.

 

[wheelie_bin]

>> As the oddball American, the worst thing is the disenfranchisement of the formerly incarcerated from voting.

Seriously? People's businesses and homes are destroyed, but throughout that you worry more about when exactly the voting rights kick in for people who have been convicted of crime?

 

[TruXta]

I think you'll find that the decrease in family size among the poor and the increase in violent crime in the US proceed together over decades. The change in sentencing policy began during the 1980's.

Must do better.

Family size has been declining for centuries. In other words it is overall not correlated with crime. Even family composition (ie single or double parent household, female or male single parent proportion) looks to only have a weak correlation with crime levels.

 

[Emet]

Must do better.

Family size has been declining for centuries. In other words it is overall not correlated with crime. Even family composition (ie single or double parent household, female or male single parent proportion) looks to only have a weak correlation with crime levels.

The notion that increasing family size is related to family planning policy is yours not mine. Amongst those most likely to commit crime, family size has fallen, whatever the family planning policy.

 

[Gramsci]

Most indicted crime is committed by poor people in the United Stated. The 1991 US census notes a decline in family size amongst the poor just at a time when crime was rising.

Also there is the problem of Black Men being dis-proportionality represented in the prison population in the US. Which has been pretty constant in US.This has more to do with the social position of Black people in the US than some inherent propensity for Black men to be criminals.

The same goes for the poor.

Ive read "The Spirit Level" by Wilkinson and Pickett which looks at how the more unequal a society is the more it is prone to a range of social problems. They looked at a comparison of industrialised societies that were similar in development of industry etc.

Here is piece from authors website on violence:

http://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/why/evidence/violence

Check out the short video as well in the link. Discusses how social status affects propensity of violence. Also looks at murder rates across different USA states and how they relate to inequality.

The link between inequality and homicide rates has been shown in as many as 40 studies, and the differences are large: there are five-fold differences in murder rates between different countries related to inequality. The most important reason why violence is more common in more unequal societies is that it is often triggered by people feeling looked down, disrespected and loss of face.

 

[chavezcat]

Hmm well I would say unlike the UK, America takes a more draconian view towards criminal convictions...as in someone convicted can't vote, ever, which doesn't help rehab/ integration into society. Merely going on the past graph post and putting something positive about the UK system compared to the US system. Part of the huge problem in the US system is people remain disenfranchised, long after they have served time.
I think this looting/rioting is abhorrent, in particular any fires. This is wanton destruction of lives and property. It is criminal and I hope they catch the bastards.

 

[TruXta]

The notion that increasing family size is related to family planning policy is yours not mine. Amongst those most likely to commit crime, family size has fallen, whatever the family planning policy.

a) got a source for that? and
b) it's not changing family size that mattered in regards to the effect of legalised abortion, it's about having more choice of WHEN to have a baby. Family size, as I say, has fallen since records began, hence has no relation to crime levels. If you insist otherwise show me some sources, some stats. I'm taking my numbers from here http://www.infoplease.com/familytrends.html

 

[Emet]

The availability of abortion or contraception by the state doesn't seem to have an obvious relationship to family size, or the commission of crime, amongst the poor, or any other social strata, in the US.

 

[TruXta]

Family size is largely irrelevant. And abortion does arguably have an effect on crime.

 

[bluestreak]

My neighbour, who's been hassling him about the new fucked-up development in the old Fulham Timber Yard on Acre Lane, reports that Reed now actively avoids many locals who have various issues with Council/Lambeth Labour policy.

doesn't surprise me, he's about as much use to this community as the looters.

 

[Emet]

a) got a source for that? and
b) it's not changing family size that mattered in regards to the effect of legalised abortion, it's about having more choice of WHEN to have a baby. Family size, as I say, has fallen since records began, hence has no relation to crime levels. If you insist otherwise show me some sources, some stats. I'm taking my numbers from here http://www.infoplease.com/familytrends.html

I once had to write a sociology essay about the family and reproduction. I don't recall the essay question. My tutor lent me a copy of the Statistical Abstract of the US Bureau of the Census, 1991. I don't have it in front of me. I am sure that it was clear that family size amongst the poor declined steadily through the 1970's through to the late 1980's.

 

[Gramsci]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/08/context-london-riots

This is a good article by Nina Power on the context for the riots:

Combine understandable suspicion of and resentment towards the police based on experience and memory with high poverty and large unemployment and the reasons why people are taking to the streets become clear. (Haringey, the borough that includes Tottenham, has the fourth highest level of child poverty in London and an unemployment rate of 8.8%, double the national average, with one vacancy for every 54 seeking work in the borough.)

Those condemning the events of the past couple of nights in north London and elsewhere would do well to take a step back and consider the bigger picture: a country in which the richest 10% are now 100 times better off than the poorest, where consumerism predicated on personal debt has been pushed for years as the solution to a faltering economy, and where, according to the OECD, social mobility is worse than any other developed country.

As Richard Wilkinson and Kate Pickett point out in The Spirit Level: Why Equality is Better for Everyone, phenomena usually described as "social problems" (crime, ill-health, imprisonment rates, mental illness) are far more common in unequal societies than ones with better economic distribution and less gap between the richest and the poorest. Decades of individualism, competition and state-encouraged selfishness – combined with a systematic crushing of unions and the ever-increasing criminalisation of dissent – have made Britain one of the most unequal countries in the developed world.

Images of burning buildings, cars aflame and stripped-out shops may provide spectacular fodder for a restless media, ever hungry for new stories and fresh groups to demonise, but we will understand nothing of these events if we ignore the history and the context in which they occur.

 

[Gramsci]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YItK1izQIwo&feature=youtu.be

Nick Clegg "warns" of riots if Tories are elected (11Apr10)


Found this hilarious old youtube piece where Clegg warns of riots if Tories are elected and bring in cuts. Also funny to see Tessa say we arent like the Greeks and dont do this sort of thing.

 

[TruXta]

I once had to write a sociology essay about the family and reproduction. I don't recall the essay question. My tutor lent me a copy of the Statistical Abstract of the US Bureau of the Census, 1991. I don't have it in front of me. I am sure that it was clear that family size amongst the poor declined steadily through the 1970's through to the late 1980's.

Again, that's besides the point. FFS I already showed that family size has been monotonously going down since the 18th fucking century. Crime has gone both up and down in that period. Hence???? And for the last time, abortion influences crime not through change in family size, but in the timing of size increase. I fucking hope you failed that essay if your logical chops were of the standard you show here.

 

[Emet]

Again, that's besides the point. FFS I already showed that family size has been monotonously going down since the 18th fucking century. Crime has gone both up and down in that period. Hence???? And for the last time, abortion influences crime not through change in family size, but in the timing of size increase. I fucking hope you failed that essay if your logical chops were of the standard you show here.

You suggested that a withdrawal of abortion and contraceptive services had a relationship to rising crime levels in the 1970's. The poor obviously had control of their fertility so this withdrawal has no relevance.

 

[DrRingDing]

Emet just fuck off with your tedious twaddle.

 

[Emet]

Timing and size are the control of fertility. They go together.