British anti-intellectualism

[ViolentPanda]

He's just frightened that a class perspective may give him considerable discomfort re hypocrisy. He feels personally offended that the 'middle class' isn't viewed with the same goggles below him. And we are beneath him. Uncouth bullies against all that is good. What he dislikes is working class people having the temerity to assert a competing understanding of how society operates. But, if the ghastly hordes get too much, he can afford to just up sticks and move to another country.

I'd contend that - if one is amenable to and able to apply - critical thinking shows us that the class perspective is the only one that makes sense "across the board". Identity politics analyses only speak to specific facets of identity, whereas class over-arches all facets of identity - those facets are almost always defined through reference to social facts generated by class position. This is clear to anyone who applies themselves to self analysis beyond gender, sexuality, "race", religion/lack of religion, cultural affiliation etc.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Debating with identity political proponents is so tiring, they pigeonhole EVERYFUCKINGTHING and restrict discussion by shutting you down.

When these fools look at people as fitting into certain criteria, their own worldview becomes warped.

It's easier to stomach an analysis that puts people in simple pigeonholes, than one that says "your class doesn't define your identity(s)". People who worship identity politics see class labels as nailing someone into a set of definitions about intelligence, culture and social practices. That's bollocks, as anyone who's lived in a working class community can tell you. We (the wc) are as heterogeneous - or even more so - in our degree of intelligence, and in our cultural practices, than the bourgeoisie are. We're truly multicultural in a way they'll never be, because we're more accepting of difference.

 

[snadge]

It's easier to stomach an analysis that puts people in simple pigeonholes, than one that says "your class doesn't define your identity(s)". People who worship identity politics see class labels as nailing someone into a set of definitions about intelligence, culture and social practices. That's bollocks, as anyone who's lived in a working class community can tell you. We (the wc) are as heterogeneous - or even more so - in our degree of intelligence, and in our cultural practices, than the bourgeoisie are. We're truly multicultural in a way they'll never be, because we're more accepting of difference.

Quoting cos' I can't like more than once.

 

[pengaleng]

alright joe college, just coz yoo got an O Level or too.

I have no qualifications in english at all actually, so nope, I just know stuff.

 

[krtek a houby]

Class isn't an identity, it's a fact of life that a liberal whiner like yourself can't - or more likely refuses to - grasp.

Class, religion, politics - all identities.

 

[krtek a houby]

He's just frightened that a class perspective may give him considerable discomfort re hypocrisy. He feels personally offended that the 'middle class' isn't viewed with the same goggles below him. And we are beneath him. Uncouth bullies against all that is good. What he dislikes is working class people having the temerity to assert a competing understanding of how society operates. But, if the ghastly hordes get too much, he can afford to just up sticks and move to another country.

"ghastly hordes" lol.

What I dislike is people like you, who make huge generalisations about other people who don't buy into your bullshit & decide you know exactly how they think.

You know nothing except hatred.

 

[krtek a houby]

Debating with identity political proponents is so tiring, they pigeonhole EVERYFUCKINGTHING and restrict discussion by shutting you down.

When these fools look at people as fitting into certain criteria, their own worldview becomes warped.

And calling people liberals, middle class, whiners, fools, stupid etc is definitely not shutting people down. Oh no.

 

[pengaleng]

What I dislike is people like you, who make huge generalisations about other people who don't buy into your bullshit & decide you know exactly how they think.

thats what you do tho

 

[Pickman's model]

thats what you do tho

They don't like it up 'em captain mainwaring

 

[sealion]

What I dislike is people like you, who make huge generalisations about other people who don't buy into your bullshit & decide you know exactly how they think.

 

[krtek a houby]

thats what you do tho

It is what you do, yes.

Name calling, alienating any and all who don't subscribe to your own worldview.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

“O, wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as others see us!"

 

[ViolentPanda]

Class, religion, politics - all identities.

There's no point communicating with you. You take nothing in. You're too comfortable in your deliberate ignorance.

 

[Pickman's model]

There's no point communicating with you. You take nothing in. You're too comfortable in your deliberate ignorance.

None so blind as those who will not see

 

[ViolentPanda]

He lacks a certain reflexivity.

 

[krtek a houby]

There's no point communicating with you. You take nothing in. You're too comfortable in your deliberate ignorance.

More snobbery. I see no communication. I see high fiving from the usual suspects about how correct they are & everyone else who doesn't fit in can just go to hell.

 

[killer b]

There's no point communicating with you. You take nothing in. You're too comfortable in your deliberate ignorance.

this is true. there's no point. so don't bother.

 

[krtek a houby]

“O, wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as others see us!"

Physician, heal thyself

 

[danny la rouge]

Class, religion, politics - all identities.

You're being wilfully obtuse. Even if you haven't read up on the issue, there have been many threads in the past where it has been explained that class is a structural issue. Here's a post I wrote, for example.

I suspect you are resistant because you feel you as an individual are being called a bad person because of your class. But you aren't: you're being judged on your unwillingness to accept that other people have a structural understanding of society.

 

[krtek a houby]

You're being wilfully obtuse. Even if you haven't read up on the issue, there have been many threads in the past where it has been explained that class is a structural issue. Here's a post I wrote, for example.

I suspect you are resistant because you feel you as an individual are being called a bad person because of your class. But you aren't: you're being judged on your unwillingness to accept that other people have a structural understanding of society.

But why is your structural understanding the correct model? Why should I not reject the concepts of religion, race, class?

I do accept that people think differently on such issues. I just don't believe they are necessarily right, that's all.

 

[danny la rouge]

But why is your structural understanding the correct model? Why should I not reject the concepts of religion, race, class?

I do accept that people think differently on such issues. I just don't believe they are necessarily right, that's all.

You are asserting that class analysis is about identity. It isn't: it's about structure. I don't require you to agree with it, merely to comprehend that it's a structural analysis.

If you want to counter that with your own conception of class as identity politics, you are welcome to (though you haven't actually outlined the basis for your conception. You've merely stated it as a one-liner). But to assert that other people's views are not structural is insulting especially given the bandwidth people have devoted to explaining it.

 

[mojo pixy]

Class, religion, politics - all identities.

Class is not an identity. It's more like a social function. Someone who '' identifies as working class '' can in fact by virtue of their social functions be bourgeois (this happens a lot) while someone who identifies as middle class might in fact be working class.

 

[danny la rouge]

Anyway this massive detail of ska invita's promising thread is a disservice to him, and I apologise for my part in it. I'll desist now.

 

[danny la rouge]

As a reminder of the actual topic:

Does Britain have some kind of unique history of [anti-intellectualism], is it still a thing, where does it originate from, how does it express itself, etc....?

 

[Idris2002]

in fact, the context I saw it in was this tweet:

This sort of thing also ignores several decades worth of research in the history and philosophy of science.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Has this article been posted? Found more or less at random, but it includes interesting quotes showing that the idea of the British as peculiarly anti-intellectual is a pretty long one, tracing it back perhaps to Burke (although clearly this has always been disputed territory - Britain needs to produce intellectuals as well in order for there to be something for anti-intellectuals to rail against).

don't know if I buy all the article's points, but the idea that it has its origins in being anti-French (from the time of the Enlightenment, then Revolution) does sound plausible. Also, if this is the case, you'd expect there to be much less of it in Scotland. Do posters think this is the case - are Scots, generally, less distrustful of intellectuals than the English?

 

[pengaleng]

while someone who identifies as middle class might in fact be working class.

this always makes me think of when prescott asked that kid if they thought they were working class and they said no they are middle class and he asked them to explain it and they just goes 'cus i aint got a job'

 

[Pickman's model]

Has this article been posted? Found more or less at random, but it includes interesting quotes showing that the idea of the British as peculiarly anti-intellectual is a pretty long one, tracing it back perhaps to Burke (although clearly this has always been disputed territory - Britain needs to produce intellectuals as well in order for there to be something for anti-intellectuals to rail against).

don't know if I buy all the article's points, but the idea that it has its origins in being anti-French (from the time of the Enlightenment, then Revolution) does sound plausible. Also, if this is the case, you'd expect there to be much less of it in Scotland. Do posters think this is the case - are Scots, generally, less distrustful of intellectuals than the English?

Yes, I posted it at the start of the thread, post 3

 

[bimble]

It is true that we don't seem to have much time for this sort of french nonsense over here. Short thrift. Don't think you'd find an Englishman behaving like that without people taking the piss and throwing things at him all day long.

 

[ska invita]

isn't it all a bit of a somewhat sterotypical mish mash of stuff to do with British insularity, suspicion of foreign ideas, protestantism, Britain's early adoption of empiricism, "science" and a somewhat materialistic world view ( The Royal Society etc ), pragmatism & scepticism in the face of what one might generalise as the more airy-fairy end of rarefied philosophy, utopian political / ideological thought that seems to go down a storm amongst gauloise puffing beret-wearing Continental types lounging around in cafes being students into their 30's

running a mile from the euro whilst all sorts of the great & the good on the continent were wittering away eulogising the golden age of prosperity and brotherhood that was about to dawn over the continent seems a fairly typical example

George Orwell probably looms in the background here aswell

“There are some ideas so absurd that only an intellectual could believe them.”

and he did that stuff on intellectual anti-Britishism (as opposed to the other way round )

Why don't we love our intellectuals?

I think your post and link is closest to the truth of it...i really can't imagine there to be much difference between the UK and other European countries in this overall, though there is likely a real difference in philosophical traditions... They don't call it Continental Philosophy for nothing. Personally most continental philosophy does little for me, and brings out my anti-intellectual streak... If you've got something to say, say it clearly and make it useful. A lot of it I think is pure mental gymnastics, with the more style and cartwheels scoring higher. But its not as if it isnt read in British universities and beyond. Can anyone make a good defense of the style of continental philosophy here - and is there something about it that jars with British traditions?

I think there is a pop intellectualism, from the pub quiz to QI, that feels very much part of British culture. Its more facts over philosophy though. Americans who visit the UK Ive known often marvel at BBC TV, which feels like school programming in comparison to US tv (and the fact there are no ads is always the most shocking bit! As is the fact that the BBC is state run).

I'm tempted to say tabloid culture and a more general dumbing down has happened over recent years in Britain, but its probably not true. Tabloid's agendas do seem to be dominating more, but thats a more complex thing than anti-intellectualism.

What Britain does seem to lack, these days especially, is high-profile intellectuals, and its hard to say if on balance thats not such a bad thing. Usually the ones that get the most airtime are the ones that say the most contentious, clickbaity things. And not enough said to challenge the system. I dont think more of these kinds of people helps much.

Despite being written by a mixed bunch I think this is quite an interesting read:
"Ten celebrated thinkers offer their thoughts on Britain's relationship with its intelligentsia
Alain de Botton, AC Grayling, Susie Orbach, Paul Gilroy, Will Self, Mary Beard, Brian Cox, Lionel Shriver, James Lovelock and Lisa Jardine"
Britain's intellectuals: leading thinkers have their say

Possibly we are in an era of the democratised intellectual, thanks to the internet etc.

I do worry the university system is going to get hollowed out, as fees and debt and budget cuts turn them away from places of free-thinking into job-prepping. That would have an effect in the mid-term.

Id be curious to know what people who have lived for long periods in other countries and also the UK think....Im not sure who to tag on that front... littleseb?