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British anti-intellectualism

Like many of his class at the time though, his allegiance was with England, not Ireland.
yeh. born in ireland. educated at trinity dublin. irish: not saying that like many of his contemporaries or indeed many of his compatriots down to the present day he didn't give his loyalty to england - but irish nonetheless.
 
tbf in that particular post you didn't really say anything at all. You started with a thought, and by the end of the post you'd more or less decided that that initial thought was wrong.

To be fair to your post, I do think imperial arrogance has something to do with it, in that the sense of superiority is supported by a feeling that you don't need to look outside for new ideas. I see that happening in the US today, and I do think it feeds into an anti-intellectual sentiment - thinking too much or too widely might lead you to question your sense of superiority.
That only works if you reduce intellectuals and knowledge down to what each nations ruling elite and it's supporting institutions consider as intellectuality. It entirely obliterates things like the multi-million multi-racial atlantic proletariat - a group that inherently had to look outside for it's own ideas given that this was the basis for its existence.

edit: or the corresponding societies and their relations with the french and other revolutionaries. All this disappears under nations.
 
Btw, LBJ, I would connect the dismissivness and arrogance of the British/American anti-intellectualism to post- (in the case of UK [but not only UK]) or outright "imperial syndrome" (US), too... No need to make an effort, since we were/are "superior" "naturally"...

Mind, Germans, Swedes etc. have such streaks, too... aplenty! Unlike many other, especially smaller nations, with the opposite "mindset". (This does not stop the Luxembourgish and Montenegrins to have a superiority complex, mind... :rolleyes:

Are you saying that the problem with British anti-intellectualism is because of some sort of post-imperial brain freeze? But that Germany and Sweden don't suffer the same problem .. because .. err .. they didn't have empires?

You're spectacularly bad at expressing yourself.

Either that or the finger should turn inwards ever so slightly... I mean, if you can't figure that out - condolences...
 
That only works if you reduce intellectuals and knowledge down to what each nations ruling elite and it's supporting institutions consider as intellectuality. It entirely obliterates things like the multi-million multi-racial atlantic proletariat - a group that inherently had to look outside for it's own ideas given that this was the basis for its existence.
Certainly. As I've stressed in past posts on this thread, any anti-intellectual strand within any culture is going to be contested. Anti-intellectualism exists alongside and competes with very different strands. So I'm not intending to obliterate anything.
 
This separation is what's returning after a few decades of it being challenged via things like university expansion and occupational flattening across the traditional w/c jobs. The material basis for that now no longer exists within capitalism - and like first time around when the original apartheid developed alongside early capitalism, this is being reflected in increasing cultural/social separation. It started with the use of 'chavs' and most recently we've seen exactly the same stuff on a much larger scale with the response by some to brexit. Indicating that those larger, longer term cultural divisions are rather stubborn and appear only to have weakened in certain fields or areas.
All the signs are its going to get worse...whats happening with universities is really depressing...Im trying to find the link that I think brogdale posted elsewhere about how data is being gathered as to which courses create what future pay (on average), info which will then be made public so as to further disencourage the take up of courses that don't equate to a big pay packet (and the possibility to pay off student debt)

today more evidence, as if it were needed, that the depoliticising of universities is the current project - the telegraph setting the mood for attack here from a report from the Adam Smith Institute
Eight in ten British university lecturers are 'Left-wing', survey finds
etc

Blair's introduction of fees squarely to blame for all this IMO
 
Oh, dear - IF this is true, which is rather questionable, from my time at British Unis - now we have to legislate by political affiliation, to manage to get more Tories "in", no matter how crass?!?? :D :p :D
 
All the signs are its going to get worse...whats happening with universities is really depressing...Im trying to find the link that I think brogdale posted elsewhere about how data is being gathered as to which courses create what future pay (on average), info which will then be made public so as to further disencourage the take up of courses that don't equate to a big pay packet (and the possibility to pay off student debt)

today more evidence, as if it were needed, that the depoliticising of universities is the current project - the telegraph setting the mood for attack here from a report from the Adam Smith Institute
Eight in ten British university lecturers are 'Left-wing', survey finds
etc

Blair's introduction of fees squarely to blame for all this IMO
tbh i think a better load of data is WHO went to WHICH school, studied WHAT subject at WHICH university and how they then did. someone from a public school studying economics or law at e.g. the lse is likely to subsequently receive a higher salary than someone who went to a comprehensive and studied the same subjects, law or economics, at e.g. london met or the grimsby institute.
 
No, but you did, I am sure...

"Let me hear you speak and I shall tell you where your granpa went to primary school" type of "connectivity" and "filtering", sure...

Not that they necessarily have had better education but the right kind of education, getting the right kind of pronunciation, knowing which fork to use, learning how to network...
 
No, but you did, I am sure...

"Let me hear you speak and I shall tell you where your granpa went to primary school" type of "connectivity" and "filtering", sure...

Not that they necessarily have had better education but the right kind of education, getting the right kind of pronunciation, knowing which fork to use, learning how to network...
This sort of stuff definitely feeds into British elite anti-intellectualism. It's not what you say or do but how you say or do it that counts. You can have not a single idea in your head, but if you've learned the intricate social codes of the elite, you will be accepted in their circles. And that it takes a lifetime to learn such codes is the whole point of them. Such a stress on form over content is bound to be anti-intellectual at its root.
 
This sort of stuff definitely feeds into British elite anti-intellectualism. It's not what you say or do but how you say or do it that counts. You can have not a single idea in your head, but if you've learned the intricate social codes of the elite, you will be accepted in their circles. And that it takes a lifetime to learn such codes is the whole point of them. Such a stress on form over content is bound to be anti-intellectual at its root.
out of curiosity, have you been accepted into their circles or is this ^ post simply a tissue of assumptions? perhaps in this instance by 'elite' you mean ruling class? perhaps not... but there is not one elite in britain, there are a number of elites, in the sociological sense. and in at least some of them having ideas in one's head is a definite advantage.
 
Perhaps. Try me. If you dare. Otherwise, this is all very much "style over substance".

How many "elites" and "how do they differ", "which elites actually do cultivate pro-intellectual attitudes" etc.?
 
Perhaps. Try me. If you dare. Otherwise, this is all very much "style over substance".

How many "elites" and "how do they differ", "which elites actually do cultivate pro-intellectual attitudes" etc.?
to paraphrase nietzsche, wisdom sets bounds even to tuition: there are some people i do not wish to teach. you are one because you show no signs of a desire for learning. when i see your posts i am reminded how true einstein's comment was, that the difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits.
 
Oh, no, you first. I insist. Actually, I already did, above, if you have 2 brain cells to rub together to figure it out... :p
 
All the signs are its going to get worse...whats happening with universities is really depressing...Im trying to find the link that I think brogdale posted elsewhere about how data is being gathered as to which courses create what future pay (on average), info which will then be made public so as to further disencourage the take up of courses that don't equate to a big pay packet (and the possibility to pay off student debt)

today more evidence, as if it were needed, that the depoliticising of universities is the current project - the telegraph setting the mood for attack here from a report from the Adam Smith Institute
Eight in ten British university lecturers are 'Left-wing', survey finds
etc

Blair's introduction of fees squarely to blame for all this IMO
Was here ska invita :)
Continuing and widening the attack on the Arts, Humanities and Social Sciences with their philistine, market-based imposition; it's almost as though they don't want people to graduate with any critical capabilities.
 
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Was here ska invita :)
Continuing and widening the attack on the Arts, Humanities and Social Sciences with their philistine, market-based imposition; it's almost as though they don't want people to graduate with any critical capabilities.
Ironic given how many of them are graduates in the Arts, Humanities or Social Sciences.

Perhaps it's more that they don't want the wrong kind of people to graduate with any critical capabilities.
 
Ironic given how many of them are graduates in the Arts, Humanities or Social Sciences.

Perhaps it's more that they don't want the wrong kind of people to graduate with any critical capabilities.
well thats it, there will still be a smaller group of people studying these subjects, but these will be people who can afford the fees and have a cushion out the other side.

I remember clearly around the year 2000 (maybe a bit later) that anonymous group the press calls "business leaders" complaining there were "too many graduates" making it hard for them to tell who was any good to employ. There then followed a rubbishing of degrees in general, but media studies in particular, as a catch-all representation. All a prequel to this total attack on higher learning.

The attempt of New Labour to get more people into education was one of the few things they did that was a silver lining (including EMA payments) - the fact they did it at the same time as introducing fees was inexcusable. This was always going to be the end point of it. If feeling generous you could say that at best they were naive to think otherwise.
 
Art schools are the starkest example of this, I think. Historically places that w/c kids could aspire to attend, but 9k a year for a fine art degree? Plus whatever you have to pay for the foundation course before it.
 
Religion(s) and the assumptions of religious and I daresay even spiritual people are at the root of almost all anti-intellectualism we witness. Post-imperial hubris .. yeah maybe. But if so, then because of the same kind of exceptionalistic, irrational assumptions. IMO religion and aggressive nationalism support each other perfectly.

eta: because both defy reason.
 
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All the signs are its going to get worse...whats happening with universities is really depressing...Im trying to find the link that I think brogdale posted elsewhere about how data is being gathered as to which courses create what future pay (on average), info which will then be made public so as to further disencourage the take up of courses that don't equate to a big pay packet (and the possibility to pay off student debt)

today more evidence, as if it were needed, that the depoliticising of universities is the current project - the telegraph setting the mood for attack here from a report from the Adam Smith Institute
Eight in ten British university lecturers are 'Left-wing', survey finds
etc

Blair's introduction of fees squarely to blame for all this IMO

It's a report by the Adam Smith Institute, probably the single most partisan of all the "New Right"-inspired "think tanks". Anyone vesting credibility in it as a signal to a need to depoliticise higher education, will be likely to be similarly obviously ideologically-invested.

It will be interesting to see whether this story filters down to other right-wing media outlets, and to see the spin they put on it.
 
Religion(s) and the assumptions of religious and I daresay even spiritual people are at the root of almost all anti-intellectualism we witness. Post-imperial hubris .. yeah maybe. But if so, then because of the same kind of exceptionalistic, irrational assumptions. IMO religion and aggressive nationalism support each other perfectly.

eta: because both defy reason.
yeh. but you forget how much of politics is irrational.
 
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