Boundary fence dispute

[20Bees]

Not suburban, but in a rural location!

I live in a semi-detached former farm cottage, with a field and barn on one side of my garden. It was unfenced when I moved here 30+ years ago. The then owners planted a hawthorn hedge on the boundary. We eventually had wire stock fence put up to keep the dogs in. The fence was put on the field side of the hawthorns, I don’t remember any discussion as to which side it should go.

The current owner of the field is staying there in a caravan (a separate issue and reported to the council) and for their privacy they are putting 6x6 wooden fence panels along the boundary. They demand that I remove the fence, and dead wood from the hedge, so they have a clear site to proceed.

My deeds state that I am responsible for fencing only one boundary, and it’s not this one. I have said they can access my garden at any time, should they need to get to it from my side. I don’t think they can insist that I either clear the site or pay a contractor to do so, the project is wholly theirs. I have said this repeatedly, in person and by email, and they are now threatening legal action.

I think their intention to live on (their own) agricultural land without a planning application for change of use to residential, may be contentious, but this is now going to fester over the Easter weekend, and before I can seek legal advice through my home insurers. Any ideas for a response beyond simply referring them to our previous conversation?

 

[two sheds]

Where do your deeds show the extent of your garden to be compared with the hawthorn hedge/stock fence?

 

[two sheds]

If the fence is on their land I'd be tempted to say to them something like "I am contacting my legal adviser and will get back to you as soon as I have received their advice." I can't see their lawyers working over Easter either. Someone more qualified will hopefully respond though

 

[20Bees]

I’m pretty sure the hawthorn hedge is exactly on the boundary - the bushes were planted by the previous owner of the field and adjacent woodland just weeks after I moved here, and they were only knee high when the wire fence was put in. It’s a 1920s house and the drawings don’t include any measurements of the boundaries or distances, only the area of the garden.

 

[two sheds]

You'd have thought their deeds would have to show that the stock fence was on their land then?

But yes good move turning it over to your insurers, they'd be the kiddies I'd have thought.

 

[a_chap]

Am I imagining it but, wasn't there a thread on U75 years ago where someone put out a call for any local urbanites to volunteer as witnesses to a dispute over a tree that was being pruned on a property boundary?

 

[A380]

Trouble is the land registry records aren’t accurate enough to show things like this. I.e plus or minus a meter or so. And the hard copies come with big caveats on them to that effect. Because most people aren’t twats.

I’d be another vote for passing it to your insurance companies solicitors.

If you felt like it you could always also let the local authority know they are living on the land, either an overt or anonymous update would do…

 

[platinumsage]

Sounds like you erected a fence on their land knowing that the hedge was theirs and also on the boundary. Why on earth didn’t you erect it in your side of the hedge? You basically enclosed their hedge and appropriated it.

If I were you I’d apologise and remove the fence.

 

[Pickman's model]

Trouble is the land registry records aren’t accurate enough to show things like this. I.e plus or minus a meter or so. And the hard copies come with big caveats on them to that effect. Because most people aren’t twats.

I’d be another vote for passing it to your insurance companies solicitors.

If you felt like it you could always also let the local authority know they are living on the land, either an overt or anonymous update would do…

He says he's already reported that

 

[A380]

He says he's already reported that

You need boundaries. This written fencing with me in your post could be a bit barbed. Its bordering on the the point where I'd tell a friend, but my pal is sad...

 

[keybored]

Sounds like you erected a fence on their land knowing that the hedge was theirs and also on the boundary. Why on earth didn’t you erect it in your side of the hedge? You basically enclosed their hedge and appropriated it.

If I were you I’d apologise and remove the fence.

It sounds like the fence went up long before it was their land.

 

[Duncan2]

pity you already contacted Council because you could have offered not to do so as a quid pro quo for them coming round to your view on the boundary issue.

 

[clicker]

It sounds like the fence went up long before it was their land.

Yes, it does sound like the fence was put up on the neighbours side of the hawthorn hedge. It probably made sense at the time, aesthetically was better hidden by the hedge (eventually) and that side of the hedge was only used as agricultural land then.

But now new owners don't want that fence on their side of the hedge, and if the hedge is the boundary, the fence is on their land.

I'd imagine it's their responsibility to remove it now.

 

[platinumsage]

It sounds like the fence went up long before it was their land.

Just because the subject of “their” changed through a conveyance doesn’t mean that 20Bees hasn’t erected a fence on someone else’s land.

 

[Limejuice]

How long has the fence been where it is?

In England, Wales and Northern Ireland, if the boundary has been in place for 12 years or more, with no problems from the neighbour, then it's likely to be judged correct in law, regardless of deeds or what a surveyor says. Basically it's the law of adverse possession, or squatters' rights, which gives ownership to an occupier after 12 years if the owner hasn't objected.

This might be helpful: https://gardening.which.co.uk/hc/en-gb/articles/214014285-How-to-deal-with-boundary-disputes

 

[StoneRoad]

Snap & thanks Limejuice

I was trying to remember that time period - I knew it was at least a decade ...

 

[keybored]

Just because the subject of “their” changed through a conveyance doesn’t mean that 20Bees hasn’t erected a fence on someone else’s land.

Well unless the old owner and the new owner wrote something into the contract saying 20Bees installed and owns the fence and is entirely responsible for it I can't really see that going anywhere.

 

[clicker]

It'd just be like helping your neighbour put up a shed in their garden, you wouldn't be expected to dismantle it if the next owners wanted to replace it. I think.

 

[20Bees]

Many thanks for sharing perspectives on this, sorry to be late replying (I’m on granny duty).

The hedge and fence went in during 1991/1992. This is only the beginning. I imagine I’ll see her in court.

 

[Limejuice]

Many thanks for sharing perspectives on this, sorry to be late replying (I’m on granny duty).

The hedge and fence went in during 1991/1992. This is only the beginning. I imagine I’ll see her in court.

Or possibly not.

If your neighbour consults a solicitor, that person will tell her that she has no right to a) alter the now-established 30-year-old boundary, b) remove your fence or your hedge, or c) insist that you remove either fence or hedge.

You are in a strong position. The question is what are you prepared to offer by way of compromise in order to have a livable relationship with your neighbour?

For instance, if the neighbour wants a 2m panel fence for privacy, you could offer to allow her to replace the existing wire fence with a panel one in the exact location of the existing fence, while the hedge remains. You see a hedge; the neighbor sees a panel fence. Win-win?

If your neighbour consults a solicitor in preparation for legal action, the solicitor will very probably** advise that she accept a reasonable compromise.

Good luck!

**Caveat: some solicitors are dickheads too.

 

[bluescreen]

The only winners from this sort of dispute are the lawyers, so be prepared to compromise as Limejuice suggests.

 

[platinumsage]

It's not as simple as establishing a new boundary by placing a fence. For a start you seem to have acknowledged that the hedge is your neighbour's property and their responsibility.

Court is rarely the best place to settle such disputes. Years of stress and a permanently hostile neighbour may lie ahead, all for what? Someone to decided for you both on who should deal with a fence and hedge?

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

Sounds like you erected a fence on their land knowing that the hedge was theirs and also on the boundary. Why on earth didn’t you erect it in your side of the hedge? You basically enclosed their hedge and appropriated it.

If I were you I’d apologise and remove the fence.

No need. The law of adverse possession applies, apparently.

A Guide to Adverse Possession | Myerson Solicitors

Land: use it or lose it. That’s the basic premise behind the often controversial legal principle of adverse possession. Find out more in our guide.

www.myerson.co.uk

 

[platinumsage]

No need. The law of adverse possession applies, apparently.

A Guide to Adverse Possession | Myerson Solicitors

Land: use it or lose it. That’s the basic premise behind the often controversial legal principle of adverse possession. Find out more in our guide.

www.myerson.co.uk

Yes, but as I said above this doesn't work by simply erecting a fence, other conditions are necessary.

 

[two sheds]

You have to demonstrate it's been there for more than the 12 years, and that you've excluded the owner from accessing the land. What else?

 

[platinumsage]

You have to demonstrate it's been there for more than the 12 years, and that you've excluded the owner from accessing the land. What else?

Intent and the previous owner's non-consent for starters. Also "I have said they can access my garden at any time, should they need to get to it from my side" doesn't sound like exclusion to me.

If 20Bees has some use for this land it may be worth engaging in a legal fight, but to go that route simply to avoid some costs associated with a new fence seems rather unwise.

 

[two sheds]

Yes came back in to say that you do have to have the intent of excluding owner. On it's own the fence would seem to do this, but Bees shouldn't admit anything.

 

[20Bees]

Thanks all.

I have no intention of excluding the landowner from accessing my side of the hedge/wire fence/her new panels. She has in the past few summers been welcome to enter my garden to use the outside tap to water her potted trees. She has asked both me and my brilliant next-door neighbours to water them many a time.

I’m not bothered about preserving the wire fence and I don’t think she plans to remove the whole hawthorn hedge, she has cut her side back and she wants a dead stump in it removed. I don’t have a problem with her doing that, I object to her demanding that I pay for her project.

I think a panel fence is a daft idea and we’re so exposed it’s bound to blow down, but that’s not actually the issue, it’s that she demands I clear the ground for her contractors, or she will tell them that I have to pay for them to do it.

There’s some back story and I don’t want to risk outing our location, other antisocial behaviour has already been reported to the council by several people locally and I have only added to the complaints that she is living in a caravan on agricultural land, without applying for or being granted change of use to residential. I’m not her only adversary over that, but I’m geographically the closest, and nobody else is affected by this particular fence.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

Yes, but as I said above this doesn't work by simply erecting a fence, other conditions are necessary.

I was saying no need in relation to your comment that they should apologise and take down a fence. I don't think that's necessary.

 

[WouldBe]

If previous owners planted the hedge then it belongs to them not you. Just tell them they can do with it what they want.