Bio Diesel

[blosch]

Given that a car is indispensable at the moment, is Bio Diesel the holy grail of alternative transport fuel. You can make the stuff at home, it cleans out your engine which needs no major modification, kicks out far less crap to the air, is cheaper, free from oil magnate control etc etc.

Why aren't we all driving around on this stuff.

 

[Mrs Magpie]

There was a great thread on this subject...I've been fossicking about in the U75 innards in an attempt to find it, but it's been culled...anyone got a copy on their hard drive?

 

[bmd]

...I've been fossicking about

The word of the century and it's still only '04. Bless ya.

 

[Roadkill]

Call me naive, but I can't see many reasons why we shouldn't be paying farmers to grow rape seed for biodiesel. It'd lessen our dependence on imported oil, it'd help to prop up the rural economy, and isn't biodiesel supposed to be cleaner-burning than ordinary diesel too?

 

[atitlan]

I can't see the oil companies in any hurry to share their forecourts with bio-diesel, but I can imagine a supermarket taking the plunge if the demand was there. There's also the point that it's the supermarkets who already have the business links and the transport arrangement for dealing with farmers.

However, although the reliance on oil would be reduced by using bio-diesel it still isn't a long term solution due to the land requirements for growing rape seed or whatever else you wished to make the bio-diesel out of.

I believe there's a lot of data on this buried somewhere in the Petroleum Geologist thread.

 

[El Jugador]

I would agree that a plant-based method of making fuel would be much better for the environment than simpy burning petrol & diesel, but I wonder how much mineral oil is used to make the fertiliser that is used to grow the plants that are used to make the oil..?

 

[Backatcha Bandit]

I would agree that a plant-based method of making fuel would be much better for the environment than simpy burning petrol & diesel, but I wonder how much mineral oil is used to make the fertiliser that is used to grow the plants that are used to make the oil..?

Sorry no time for a decent answer atm, but you may find this article answers a few questions:

http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cach...il%20Fuels%A0.pdf+biomass+site:holon.se&hl=en

There is more on F. Gunthers excellent site if you have a dig about: http://www.holon.se./folke/index.shtml

 

[Roadkill]

I can't see the oil companies in any hurry to share their forecourts with bio-diesel, but I can imagine a supermarket taking the plunge if the demand was there. There's also the point that it's the supermarkets who already have the business links and the transport arrangement for dealing with farmers.

However, although the reliance on oil would be reduced by using bio-diesel it still isn't a long term solution due to the land requirements for growing rape seed or whatever else you wished to make the bio-diesel out of.

I believe there's a lot of data on this buried somewhere in the Petroleum Geologist thread.

I'll get round to reading that thread someday...

Tbh, that's what I meant: the oil companies aren't going to like it, which is one reason to think that it's probably a good idea! But if it could be arranged via independent filling stations and supermarkets, then the problem isn't insoluble.

I agree it isn't a long term solution, not only because of the land (and let's face it, rape seed isn't very pleasant stuff anyway - it stinks, for a start), but because it's still burning a carbon-based fuel with all the attendant pollution. However, as a means of lessening our dependence on foreign oil flogged by multinationals and, perhaps, giving ourselves some space in which to experiment with alternative fuels, there's something to be said for it, isn't there?



<I think this is the first time I've ever posted in this forum actually>

 

[atitlan]

I'll get round to reading that thread someday...

But if it could be arranged via independent filling stations and supermarkets, then the problem isn't insoluble.

I'm not overkeen on the idea of the supermarkets taking hold of this market too, but I think it's inevitable as they have the nationwide networks of filling stations to make it a practical proposition - people will only switch if they know they're not going to be left stranded with nowhere to fill up (although it may be the case that an empty diesel that's been running on bio can still fill with DERV - not sure.)

In terms of an independent network - there does seem to be a few people working in this area an a few of the smaller fuel companies (e.g. Rix) use are selling a 95% DERV/5% Bio mix which is suitable for most current production diesels (and from what I've read is the norm in France).

but becuse it's still burning a carbon-based fuel with all the attendant pollution.

Burning fuels will always give some pollution, but my understanding is that bio-fuels give a significant improvement over DERV in this regard and of course the biggest factor is that a bio-fuel is CO2 neutral.

However, as a means of lessening our dependence on foreign oil flogged by multinationals and, perhaps, giving ourselves some space in which to experiment with alternative fuels, there's something to be said for it, isn't there?

Definitely, and I think it should be a matter of priority to move things like public transport and the emergency services over to UK-sourced bio-diesel as soon as possible. Private transport can take it's chances, but it would make sense to encourage people to make the switch.

 

[JWH]

Patak's (I think, or maybe Sharwood's) runs all their own trucks on used cooking oil from their poppadom factory. During the fuel blockades, Greenpeace gave out free biodiesel in Edinbugh and a few other places.

I can't imagine you'd use more energy making biodiesel from rape than you'd get from it: most of the energy inputs come from the sun, surely?

 

[El Jugador]

I can't imagine you'd use more energy making biodiesel from rape than you'd get from it: most of the energy inputs come from the sun, surely?

It is certainly true that the energy contained in biodiesel comes from the sun, no doubt about it. But I was asking whether the fertiliser used to encourage the growth of the rape plants actually uses more energy from mineral sources than is subsequently captured from the sun by the resulting crop.

Backatcha's first link gives the following stats on the amount of energy (currently coming from mineral sources in the main part) used in agriculture:

In the United States, 400 gallons of oil equivalents are expended annually to feed each American (as of data provided in 1994).

Agricultural energy consumption is broken downas follows:
31% for the manufacture of inorganic fertilizer
19% for the operation of field machinery
16% for transportation
13% for irrigation
08% for raising livestock (not including livestock feed)
05% for crop drying
05% for pesticide production
08% miscellaneous

Now if these figures are still relevent, then you're looking at roughly a gallon of oil per person per day - or millions of gallons per day, or hundreds of millions of gallons per year - just for the production of food! Roughly one third of which is solely attributable to the production of the fertiliser used.

So presuming that similar quantities of fertiliser would be required to grow boidiesel from rapeseed, we're looking at quite a substantial amount of energy required just to make the fertiliser that is used to create the seed that biodiesel is made from.

Will this create a net 'profit' in energy if we use so much energy making fertiliser? I don't know, and my reasoning on this matter is admittedly rather skakey, but it looks to me like the maths makes this issue somewhat more complicated than simply saying "we can grow diesel".

Anyone have a firmer grip on the issue?

 

[Mrs Magpie]

Yes, but you can make biodiesel from old chip fat, so don't forget to factor in the recycling too................

 

[Dhimmi]

I'll get round to reading that thread someday...

I agree it isn't a long term solution, not only because of the land (and let's face it, rape seed isn't very pleasant stuff anyway - it stinks, for a start), but because it's still burning a carbon-based fuel with all the attendant pollution. However, as a means of lessening our dependence on foreign oil flogged by multinationals and, perhaps, giving ourselves some space in which to experiment with alternative fuels, there's something to be said for it, isn't there?

Well possibly but I think all the EU chicanery doesn't help at all. Rape seed is a double subsidy crop and the glut in rape seed that's created has generated these various schemes to get rid of it.
I believe more simplistic tax incentives might help, so instead of simply taxing fuel to a greater and greater degree, maybe a tax break for annually decreasing personal or business fuel usage.
cheers,

 

[Backatcha Bandit]

Yes, but you can make biodiesel from old chip fat, so don't forget to factor in the recycling too................

From a purely economic point of view, I have to compete with animal feed manufacturers when purchasing used veg oil. The best I can do at the moment is around 30p per litre delivered (1000L bulk). I can get fresh stuff cheaper at Tesco, ffs!

I'm not overkeen on the idea of the supermarkets taking hold of this market too, but I think it's inevitable as they have the nationwide networks of filling stations to make it a practical proposition - people will only switch if they know they're not going to be left stranded with nowhere to fill up (although it may be the case that an empty diesel that's been running on bio can still fill with DERV - not sure.)

Technical point - you can mix biodiesel and normal diesel (DERV) in the tank with no problems - just fill up with whatever you can get - no chance of being 'stranded'.

If you decide to convert an engine to run on straight veg oil (SVO) you can still stick DERV in with no adverse effects... An SVO conversion (only really neccessary in colder climates, to be honest) usually entails a device to lower the viscosity of the SVO (heat it) and some sort of mechanism to 'purge' the fuel pump of SVO to prevent waxy deposits forming as the engine cools (usually a small tank of DERV/Biodiesel just used when starting and stopping the engine).

Many people have found their diesel engine run just fine on SVO with NO modifications at all, or some with very minor changes..

Check out the SVO Database here: http://www.goatindustries.co.uk/fuelsdatabase/

 

[Backatcha Bandit]

Also, if you do decide to run on SVO or biodiesel, you need to get a form 'EX103' (IIRC) from your local HM Customs and Excise office. Just phone them up and ask for the guide booklet, too.

 

[El Jugador]

Yes, but you can make biodiesel from old chip fat, so don't forget to factor in the recycling too................

This chip fat oil will have been grown in fields too, so it should be factored to the 'oil required' side of the equation not the 'oil available' side, surely?

 

[atitlan]

Technical point - you can mix biodiesel and normal diesel (DERV) in the tank with no problems - just fill up with whatever you can get - no chance of being 'stranded'.

If you decide to convert an engine to run on straight veg oil (SVO) you can still stick DERV in with no adverse effects...

Thanks for that info. I wasn't sure whether there was any engine retuning necessary to run on one rather than the other.

 

[chooch]

This chip fat oil will have been grown in fields too, so it should be factored to the 'oil required' side of the equation not the 'oil available' side, surely?

Yes, but its primary purpose is as chip fat oil, not fuel oil. It's a waste product that's being reused, so its available, rather than required for this purpose.

 

[Backatcha Bandit]

Yes, but its primary purpose is as chip fat oil, not fuel oil. It's a waste product that's being reused, so its available, rather than required for this purpose.

How many chips can you eat?

As mentioned above: It can't really be considered a 'waste product', I was lead to believe that a large amount of used cooking oil was disposed of in landfill, but this appears not to be the case anymore (if anyone has contradictory information, please let me know).

In terms of producing crops for conversion to biofuel, the energy input (fossil fuel derived) and land mass requirement make it unviable as a 'solution' to the energy problem. When the fossil fuel supply fails/price spirals up, we will suddenly find that we need that landmass for food production, as our current agricultural methods use fossil derived energy so intensively (approx 10 units oil energy to put 1 unit of food energy on the table).

 

[JWH]

It can't really be considered a 'waste product'

Why not? Surely if used cooking oil is disposed of somewhere and it's not reused and reprocessed, then it's waste?

(Obviously you couldn't fuel the entire economy from mass cooking oil byproduct).

 

[chooch]

In terms of producing crops for conversion to biofuel, the energy input (fossil fuel derived) and land mass requirement make it unviable as a 'solution' to the energy problem.

Yep. No argument here.

 

[El Jugador]

So biodiesel's not much of a holy grail then? Nor hydrogen either if remember correctly, something about hydrogen being very energy-expensive to make. What else? Alcohol? Clockwork?

 

[blosch]

So biodiesel's not much of a holy grail then? Nor hydrogen either if remember correctly, something about hydrogen being very energy-expensive to make. What else? Alcohol? Clockwork?

Agree with you there, since starting this thread i've read up more on the subject and the conclusion seems to be we're in for a bad time. As oil gets more expensive, nations will increasingly compete for the big fields, populations will die off, inflation will attain orbit, economies will collapse, world disorder, war, disease, pestilence, all that stuff in the Bible. Even a massive Nuclear building programme won't head off the crash in time.

Those survivalists might be on to something, head for the hills and hunker down.

 

[chooch]

So biodiesel's not much of a holy grail then? Nor hydrogen either if remember correctly, something about hydrogen being very energy-expensive to make. What else? Alcohol? Clockwork?

A vaguely sensible planning system? Tax? Regulation? Education?

 

[El Jugador]

A vaguely sensible planning system? Tax? Regulation? Education?

Worth considering maybe, but alas I fear the problems with these are...
vaguely sensible planning system - hasn't worked so far (or is yet to be tried, depending on your viewpoint).
Tax - and depend on it even more?
Regulation - which everybody ignores!
Education - see vaguely sensible planning system above.

No I tell you the future lies in hamsters.

 

[FifthFromFront]

So biodiesel's not much of a holy grail then? Nor hydrogen either if remember correctly, something about hydrogen being very energy-expensive to make. What else? Alcohol? Clockwork?

People of Bougainville use coconut oil dont they... hmmmm but this is a temperate environment yadda yadda

I concur with El Jug the future is hamsters apart for agricultural vehicles which will be allowed to run on Red Squirrels.

FFF

 

[Bernie Gunther]

A fundamental problem I have with 'business as usual only with biofuels' solutions is they look at one part of the problem in isolation.

Typically in Western Europe, about 2x as much oil is used to increase food production and to process and distribute food, as is used to power cars.

Biofuels compete with food production for land, so if you are using a field to grow biofuels, you aren't using it to grow food. This isn't a problem on an experiemental scale, but if one were actually talking about replacing oil in both systems, some tricky choices must be made.

Assuming we carrried on using fuels at our present rate, we'd need about 2-3 times as much land to produce biofuels to meet that demand as we'd need to grow food. (ref: Petroleum geologist thread) That's fine if we have enough land to do both, but we probably don't have enough suitable land available.

Industrial farming methods are oil dependent and degrade land and water systems. Without the oil, they're less efficient and anyway we're rapidly losing productive land due to erosion etc. If you take these things into account, the productive capacity of the land is reduced and if you want to be maximally efficient in producing, without trashing the soil or water table, you're doing something more like gardening than farming and thus need to take into account the increased labour costs of growing stuff that way.

In other words replacing oil is not as simple as it looks, because oil pervades so many of our life-support systems. If you want to replace oil stocks with solar flows, many things change and systems that can be treated as separate in an oil economy develop unexpected connections in a solar economy. The last time the UK ran on a solar economy we had about 10m people, we've got 60m now and while we know more science, it's not totally obvious to me that we're clever enough yet to sustain business as usual.'

 

[chooch]

lots of stuff...

Yes.
Tempting prospect innit.