BBC - Owen Jones

[butchersapron]

Poor old Hilary, loving the w/c but never quite trusting them

 

[butchersapron]

They can't . It is the Labour electoral tail trying to wag the working class dog; a situation that articul8 says can't be (and therefore shouldn't be?) challenged in the next couple of years. So its keep your heads down, get Labour back in and then we'll see the real work begin...neither inspring nor realistic.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

I'm sure there's plenty here who remember the various articul8s transforming themselves into the most aggressive critics of the structural role the labour party and the unions are forced to play in bourgeois democracy on the 2nd of may 1997.

 

[articul8]

what you're saying is that once in power the labour party will impose neo-liberalism again.

What I'm saying is that it is possible for the left and the unions to attenuate the all-out anti-austerity assault in terms of the programme on which Labour will come to power. What happens then depends to an extent on the movement inside and outside the party, but inevitably there will be pressure from capital to implement further neoliberal reforms. My wager is that we'll be in a better position to resist this is we've built alliances and begun to win hearts and minds both in the Labour movement and beyond, than if we just stick a flag in the ground as say "here we are - the anti-austerity party" (TUSC or whatever).

This lat para, it repeats the same things that were said in 1951, in 64 and 66, in 74 and 83. This time its different. Its different each time isn't it. Yet the results are always always the same. Maybe there's some sort of structural reason for that, what do you think?

I think the relevant parallel is 31 - and why it merits some serious thought about why the attempt to launch the ILP as an independent party failed. Owen J regularly cites this is "proof" that there is no prospect for the left outside Labour. I'd want to have a better understanding of what went wrong then and why (sure it relates to international balance of class forces etc.).

 

[coley]

My brain is actually beginning to hurt from trying to detangle what articul8 is trying to say

Pleased it ain't just me

 

[sihhi]

Ugh, not-labour labour. This is Glasman's civic society stuff but firmly under the control and watchful eyes of those who need to be in control at all times.

What does this mean? This is Hilary Wainwright of Beyond the Fragments very different to Glasman.

Glasman is a pure social democrat, promoting Germany CDU and SPD alike:

The paradox of the crash was that Germany – the country with the greatest degree both of constraint on capital markets in its banking system and of worker representation on boards, and the deepest interference of vocational institutions in regulating labour market entry – is the most competitive and successful economy in Europe.

Labour's new position on immigration allows us to explicitly engage with the problem of wages and skills among our fellow citizens, and not rely on importing skills from abroad. The one nation idea allows an inclusive politics of the common good to be developed in which virtue, loyalty and honesty can be spoken of as necessary features of the move from debt to value in our economy.

A further paradox is that the renewal of democracy can be achieved only with effective leadership. By challenging prevailing orthodoxies, having the courage to defy the old consensus and define a new political position, and championing changes (party organisers; the living wage; the interest rate cap; the establishment of regional banks; a renewed vocational economy; a relational approach to welfare within a politics of renewed solidarity) Miliband has all the ingredients necessary to bake the cake.

 

[articul8]

Because what you're preaching is the sort of gradualist reformism (Fabianism incarnate!) that has already been shown to not work, and the "concessions" it wins are partial sops, not substantive social gains.

No! I'm saying that's what it's possible to achieve in the very short term *on the electoral field* - nowhere am I saying that is all politics should be about in the next 2 years, far from it. I have talked in very practical ways about the work on the ground based on class militancy that could help to cement a anti-austerity ideological bloc with genuine grassroots support and a relevance to w/c people beyond the ballot box.

What I *don't* think is to productively contest elections before 2015 through any vehicle other than through Labour. If there is a better way please explain how and why...

 

[butchersapron]

What I'm saying is that it is possible for the left and the unions to attenuate the all-out anti-austerity assault in terms of the programme on which Labour will come to power. What happens then depends to an extent on the movement inside and outside the party, but inevitably there will be pressure from capital to implement further neoliberal reforms. My wager is that we'll be in a better position to resist this is we've built alliances and begun to win hearts and minds both in the Labour movement and beyond, than if we just stick a flag in the ground as say "here we are - the anti-austerity party" (TUSC or whatever).


I think the relevant parallel is 31 - and why it merits some serious thought about why the attempt to launch the ILP as an independent party failed. Owen J regularly cites this is "proof" that there is no prospect for the left outside Labour. I'd want to have a better understanding of what went wrong then and why (sure it relates to international balance of class forces etc.).

So you mean yes, once in power the labour party will impose neo-liberalism again. Why don't you just say that?

No, you just want to relive those old lost battles and those failed perspectives really.

 

[articul8]

nothing is wholly new under the sun

 

[ViolentPanda]

Poor old Hilary, loving the w/c but never quite trusting them

Even when looming over the poor stool-sitters in her chair..

 

[treelover]

Labour have just backed Universal Credit, we should ask Owen about that

 

[butchersapron]

What does this mean? This is Hilary Wainwright of Beyond the Fragments very different to Glasman.

Glasman is a pure social democrat, promoting Germany CDU and SPD alike:

I'm suggesting that HW's pro-w/c politics and Glasman's pro-civic society approach have considerable crossover in that both circle around the labour party and the established Trade Unions and see the forwarding of their projects through similar organisations and institutions. HW's sounds more radical (if you can get past the insufferable, see workers have brains too type stuff - what sort of audience would need to be told that?) and glasmans more expansive but is still based in and on the idea of some outside-labour but really determined by their influence area.

(BTF was a long long time ago as well - and what politics did she adopt as a result of it. The same mess as articul8 offers today, just with Benn instead of McDonnell.)

 

[sihhi]

I think the relevant parallel is 31 - and why it merits some serious thought about why the attempt to launch the ILP as an independent party failed. Owen J regularly cites this is "proof" that there is no prospect for the left outside Labour. I'd want to have a better understanding of what went wrong then and why (sure it relates to international balance of class forces etc.).

Don't the realities of 1984, 1986 and 1987 and expulsions from Labour have some relevance, hell even the 1992 expulsions of the AWL must have some relevance too?

Owen Jones today is 'join but don't get kicked out play by the Labour Right rules'.

His answer to the Trotskyists of the 50s and 60s generation would probably be 'you should never have left but waited to be kicked out'.

 

[articul8]

Is there some connection with Hilary Wainwright's support of trade unions who tow the line like Newcastle?

She's not defending the role of unions in Newcastle in general She was pointing to a specific instance of tabling an in-house bid to take back services from private hands.

 

[sihhi]

I'm suggesting that HW's pro-w/c politics and Glasman's pro-civic society approach have considerable crossover in that both circle around the labour party and the established Trade Unions and see the forwarding of their projects through similar organisations and institutions. HW's sounds more radical (if you can get past the insufferable, see workers have brains too type stuff - what sort of audience would need to be told that?) but is still based in and on the idea of some outside-labour but really determined by their influence area.

Ah. Got it.

Wainwright has always been dismissive of people who want to enter those institutions but not play on their terms:

Sectarian Trots did indeed have a noisome presence in some branches of the Labour party. But Livingstone demonstrated another left, the memory of which seems to be repressed: a left that was innovative, radically democratic and determinedly egalitarian. It was a powerful and effective force.

By contrast these people tow the line

Certainly the popular planning unit, which I directed as part of an innovative, bottom-up industrial strategy, was an independently minded gang of ex-shop-floor leaders, feminist organisers and writers, experienced adult educationists and community organisers.

Ultimately Wainwright is Labour and so is Glasman.

 

[ViolentPanda]

No! I'm saying that's what it's possible to achieve in the very short term *on the electoral field* - nowhere am I saying that is all politics should be about in the next 2 years, far from it.

You may not be saying it, but such a conclusion isn't exactly difficult to draw from your perorations.

I have talked in very practical ways...

Nope. Be honest. You've waffled vague generalities and offered a few rheotrical flourishes. You've not "talked in practical ways".

...about the work on the ground based on class militancy that could help to cement a anti-austerity ideological bloc with genuine grassroots support and a relevance to w/c people beyond the ballot box.

Cemented into what, though?
The answer, as always, is "into an alliance with Labour, with 'the bloc' operating as a provider of electoral raw material (votes), and being offered the occasional sop for their trouble.

What I *don't* think is to productively contest elections before 2015 through any vehicle other than through Labour. If there is a better way please explain how and why...

Well obviously for you, with your investment in a system of parliamentary democracy, there's NO "better way", because only with that system can the results you desire be achieved.

 

[butchersapron]

Labour have just backed Universal Credit, we should ask Owen about that

Shut up and eat your "small but important short-term incremental gains".

 

[treelover]

pardon?

 

[butchersapron]

Don't suppose anyone has a copy of the old billy bragg pic with the slogan by any means necessary on the top and:
If you come vote with me i'll come protest with you and stand on the picket line with you (something like that anyway) across the main body? Suddenly feels so...apt.

 

[butchersapron]

Shut up and eat your "small but important short-term incremental gains".

Ok, articul8 argued a few posts ago that labour will and can provide "small but important short-term incremental gains".

 

[sihhi]

Shut up and eat your "small but important short-term incremental gains".

There are significant gains on the verge of being realised:

Labour is today calling on the Government to lead a national effort to construct a national memorial to commemorate the conflict in Afghanistan.

Labour supports offering the public an opportunity to provide ideas on the what form the memorial should take. All innovative ideas on how to make a meaningful memorial which will engage the service communities, military families and the public should be welcome. The process of deciding the design of the memorial can itself be a way of the country engaging with our Forces’ contribution to Afghanistan. A panel, perhaps led by the Chief of the Defence Staff, Prime Minister and leading Service Charities, could judge the final memorial design. A national, government-led fundraising effort should fund the memorial, alongside funds from the Community Covenant grant scheme.

Jim Murphy MP, Labour’s Shadow Defence Secretary, said: "It is essential there is meaningful commemoration of our Forces’ painful sacrifice in Afghanistan. This must be a national memorial that the whole nation feels part of. The public should be involved from the start so that they can show their sympathy and solidarity."

 

[articul8]

Sectarian Trots did indeed have a noisome presence in some branches of the Labour party.

She's not attacking their radicalism she's attacking their sectarianism!

 

[articul8]

Anyway if the likes of butchersapron Louis MacNeice and ViolentPanda will oblige us, let's hear their alternative proposals beyond the vagueries of "independent w/c self-organisation" - how and in what way will this find organisational expression? So far we've had the IWCA bring about the world-historical breakthrough of a few seats, promptly lost, with just a small provincial athletics club to show for it. I'm sure that countering such a movement will be on the agenda of the next Davos summit of world leaders.

I criticise TUSC for being ill-timed and self-defeating, but at least it's clear what it's aiming at. But what alternative are you lot putting forward and how will it scale up to challenge neoliberalism?

 

[butchersapron]

This strategy that you claim that you have, you've been asked to outline it at least 5 or 6 times over the last few days alone. Can you outline it now please?

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Anyway if the likes of [B]butchersapron Louis MacNeice and ViolentPanda will oblige us, let's hear their alternative proposals beyond the vagueries of "independent w/c self-organisation" - how and in what way will this find organisational expression?[/B] So far we've had the IWCA bring about the world-historical breakthrough of a few seats, promptly lost, with just a small provincial athletics club to show for it. I'm sure that countering such a movement will be on the agenda of the next Davos summit of world leaders.

I criticise TUSC for being ill-timed and self-defeating, but at least it's clear what it's aiming at. But what alternative are you lot putting forward and how will it scale up to challenge neoliberalism?

Can't you see the contradiction in demanding that I outline the organisational expression of 'independent working class self organisation'?

Louis MacNeice

 

[ViolentPanda]

Anyway if the likes of butchersapron Louis MacNeice and ViolentPanda will oblige us, let's hear their alternative proposals beyond the vagueries of "independent w/c self-organisation" - how and in what way will this find organisational expression? So far we've had the IWCA bring about the world-historical breakthrough of a few seats, promptly lost, with just a small provincial athletics club to show for it. I'm sure that countering such a movement will be on the agenda of the next Davos summit of world leaders.

I criticise TUSC for being ill-timed and self-defeating, but at least it's clear what it's aiming at. But what alternative are you lot putting forward and how will it scale up to challenge neoliberalism?

My alternative?
Liquidate you and your class. Start with a clean slate, and a system that doesn't make places for you and your ilk to manufacture careers out of.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Can't you see the contradiction in demanding that I outline the organisational expression of 'independent working class self organisation'?

Louis MacNeice

Probably not.

 

[sihhi]

Don't suppose anyone has a copy of the old billy bragg pic with the slogan by any means necessary on the top and:
If you come vote with me i'll come protest with you and stand on the picket line with you (something like that anyway) across the main body? Suddenly feels so...apt.

Just as point of fact, Billy Bragg did declare he was against Kinnock when supporting and encouraging others to support him on tour for 18 months.

This interview with Stephen Wells (important NME journalist in the 1980s and 1990s) highlighted it:

 

[articul8]

My alternative?
Liquidate you and your class

my class? really? I suppose you and your lumpen/boho/crusty mates won't have much time for the working class, no

 

[articul8]

Can't you see the contradiction in demanding that I outline the organisational expression of 'independent working class self organisation'?

what forms would you imagine this might take?

 

[articul8]

This strategy that you claim that you have, you've been asked to outline it at least 5 or 6 times over the last few days alone. Can you outline it now please?

You've already determined in advance it couldn't possibly be adequate, so what is the point?