Bash the Rich!

[october_lost]

It reminds me of the early SDS days....

 

[TopCat]

So you are neutral on the question of whether I am mistaken.

 

[GuruYoghourt]

You have totally failed to understand or appreciate what was written.

I certainly have not. Like most anarchist stunts, this one is as puerile as it is pointless. You do not effect social change by attacking symptoms, but rather by attacking causes, and if you can't see that then you've failed to understand the nature of capitalism.

 

[The Black Hand]

I certainly have not. Like most anarchist stunts, this one is as puerile as it is pointless. You do not effect social change by attacking symptoms, but rather by attacking causes, and if you can't see that then you've failed to understand the nature of capitalism.

Doh! Are you seriously saying rich Toff class people are not involved in the reproduction of capitalism?

And while we're on this subject please could you describe some 'causes' (as you put it) of capitalism.

 

[The Black Hand]

Don't worry about it - a small bit of fun.

 

[GuruYoghourt]

Doh! Are you seriously saying rich Toff class people are not involved in the reproduction of capitalism?

And while we're on this subject please could you describe some 'causes' (as you put it) of capitalism.

First off, I don't think that's doing your eyes any good at all. So stop it.

Look. Capitalism reproduces itself, just as it produces rich people and poor people. Everybody's a functionary, and that's all. There are no 'evil' capitalists in control. In fact, there's no-one in control. You're advocating bashing people who were born a particular way. Neat thinking. Let's get the disabled, too, eh? It's that foolish. If you'd been born rich you'd not be spouting your anarchist hogwash here, now, would you?

Causes of capitalism? I don't understand the question, although I suspect that that's because you haven't understood my position.

 

[The Black Hand]

First off, I don't think that's doing your eyes any good at all. So stop it.

Look. Capitalism reproduces itself, just as it produces rich people and poor people. Everybody's a functionary, and that's all. There are no 'evil' capitalists in control. In fact, there's no-one in control. You're advocating bashing people who were born a particular way. Neat thinking. Let's get the disabled, too, eh? It's that foolish. If you'd been born rich you'd not be spouting your anarchist hogwash here, now, would you?

Causes of capitalism? I don't understand the question, although I suspect that that's because you haven't understood my position.

I do understand it and disagree with it. It is you who have failed to understand capitalism. What's that bullshite about 'my eyes' to - you were completely incomprehensible there.

Putting everybody on the same level in terms of power/opportunities/ simply is not possible. Yours appears to me to be a very niave analysis.

 

[untethered]

The rich man in his castle,
The poor man at his gate,
God made them, high or lowly,
And order'd their estate.

.

 

[GuruYoghourt]

I do understand it and disagree with it. It is you who have failed to understand capitalism. What's that bullshite about 'my eyes' to - you were completely incomprehensible there.

Putting everybody on the same level in terms of power/opportunities/ simply is not possible. Yours appears to me to be a very niave analysis.

I never advocated such a thing. Which lends weight to my argument that you've failed to grasp what I'm saying. Shall we begin again?

Economic disparity is a function of capitalism. We have rich and poor because we have class-divided society. To attempt to ameliorate that situation without addressing the cause of that situation is doomed to failure. You can't reform capitalism in the interest of the working-class, any more than you can run an abbatoir in the interests of the animals slaughtered in it.

 

[joer90]

If the rich are "just the same as us" why don't they stop making us work every day and night for them? start paying us a "living wage".give up there 2nd 3rd and 4th houses? hundreds of acres of land ect ? and we could all live in peace and harmony? you really are a muppet! the only way were guna get what is ours is by forcing the bastards to give us it asking nicely or moraliseing unfortunately dosent work..........................

 

[The Black Hand]

I never advocated such a thing. Which lends weight to my argument that you've failed to grasp what I'm saying. Shall we begin again?

Economic disparity is a function of capitalism. We have rich and poor because we have class-divided society. To attempt to ameliorate that situation without addressing the cause of that situation is doomed to failure. You can't reform capitalism in the interest of the working-class, any more than you can run an abbatoir in the interests of the animals slaughtered in it.

DOh! I am not interested in reform - I am interested in revolution

You gave so little substance so I drew the above point out of what you had said. It seemed to me to be a logical derivative of your idealistic position. What theoretical heritage are you drawing on? Which authors? Or as it looks - have you just made it up?

 

[butchersapron]

What's wrong with thinking for yourself? Or as you call it making stuff up.

 

[Brainaddict]

If the rich are "just the same as us" why don't they stop making us work every day and night for them? start paying us a "living wage".give up there 2nd 3rd and 4th houses? hundreds of acres of land ect ? and we could all live in peace and harmony? you really are a muppet! the only way were guna get what is ours is by forcing the bastards to give us it asking nicely or moraliseing unfortunately dosent work..........................

That's not really a political tactic though, so much as a teenage rant about how bad all those bad people are. So much of this class war rhetoric is lacking in, well, actual politics.

For instance some people think that the kind of revolution you have has a lot to do with the post-revolutionary landscape. So using terms like 'forcing the bastards' is quite telling.

A properly political look at the problem of class divisions and exploitation would start from asking where we want to get to, not who we want to hate.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a pacifist. But I'm also not an idiot. And I can see that saying 'Those people have got what I want so I'm going to take it' is the politics (or lack thereof) of wannabe bullies pissed off that other people are better at being bullies than them.

 

[butchersapron]

A properly political look at the problem of class divisions and exploitation would start from asking where we want to get to, not who we want to hate.

Would it? Why? Why not look at contemporary class composition and movement instead? Why should it be about where 'we' want to go? Why is your approach any more 'political'? What do you mean by 'political'?

 

[Brainaddict]

Would it? Why? Why not look at contemporary class composition and movement instead? Why should it be about where 'we' want to go? Why is your approach any more 'political'? What do you mean by 'political'?

Because it's difficult to move forward if you don't know where you're going. I mean 'political' as opposed to vacuous sloganeering - that is, actually thinking about the relations between people now, what they might look like in a more just society, and how to get from here to there.
And by 'we' I mean anyone who cares.

But I know you read sinister liberal motives into everything I write, so *actually* what I meant by 'political' is anyone who agrees with me, 'we' means 'everybody had better get in line or else' and my vision of a future society is important because otherwise how will I know what to impose on people?

 

[butchersapron]

Because it's difficult to move forward if you don't know where you're going. I mean 'political' as opposed to vacuous sloganeering - that is, actually thinking about the relations between people now, what they might look like in a more just society, and how to get from here to there.
And by 'we' I mean anyone who cares.

But I know you read sinister liberal motives into everything I write, so *actually* what I meant by 'political' is anyone who agrees with me, 'we' means 'everybody had better get in line or else' and my vision of a future society is important because otherwise how will I know what to impose on people?

A remarkably a-political reply Well, given that you reject class analysis what are you doing offering advice to people who recognise the centrality of class to politics as to how to proceed? I don't think you actually really answered any of those questions btw...

 

[GuruYoghourt]

If the rich are "just the same as us" why don't they stop making us work every day and night for them? start paying us a "living wage".give up there 2nd 3rd and 4th houses? hundreds of acres of land ect ? and we could all live in peace and harmony? you really are a muppet! the only way were guna get what is ours is by forcing the bastards to give us it asking nicely or moraliseing unfortunately dosent work..........................

Damn, man! What is it with you guys and your extrapolation? Where did I say the rich were the same as us? I didn't. Where did I suggest asking nicely? Oh. Look. I didn't. Where did I moralise? Surprisingly enough, I didn't. What I pointed out was that demanding this and that whilst accepting the continuation of capitalism was doomed as a tactic.
There can be no fairness within capitalism: it's a social system that's based on the exploitation of the majority by the minority, and the only way of changing is by having a conscious, democratic social revolution that transforms society into a classless, stateless, moneyless society based on the common ownership and democratic control of the means of production.

Who's a muppet? Certainly not me, although I wonder who's got their fist up your bum.

 

[GuruYoghourt]

DOh! I am not interested in reform - I am interested in revolution

You gave so little substance so I drew the above point out of what you had said. It seemed to me to be a logical derivative of your idealistic position. What theoretical heritage are you drawing on? Which authors? Or as it looks - have you just made it up?

You're still doing that rolling eyes thing.

If you're not interested in reform why aren't you advocating revolution?

 

[admirablenelson]

All you need to know about this campaign is to be found in the following quote from that blog.

about John Cruddas ...

"Being based permanently in Dagenham isn’t good enough for him, so he claims assistance on a second ‘London’ home - in swanky Notting Hill. This also means his spoilt children can get into a nice Catholic school, and don’t have to go one in nasty old Dagenham."

Firstly, the Cruddas kids can hardly defend themselves against the charge of being "spoilt".

Then the familiar charge that any one who doesn't send his kids to the shittiest school imginaginable is somehow an enemy of the people.

Yawn. More sixth form politics, bin.

 

[The Black Hand]

You're still doing that rolling eyes thing.

If you're not interested in reform why aren't you advocating revolution?

I am.

Funnily enough I am saying these things as somebody who is not promoting the event cos I live in a different part of the country a long long way away from where it is taking place...

Your critique is not so much critique - more jumbled mess - you said "We have rich and poor because we have class-divided society. To attempt to ameliorate that situation without addressing the cause of that situation is doomed to failure." But you could quite easily say that 'we have class divided society because we have rich and poor' which to me makes more sense cos I am looking up from below at the class structure around and above me.

You are not at all clear, and you are full of wishful thinking...

 

[The Black Hand]

What's wrong with thinking for yourself? Or as you call it making stuff up.

Thinking for yourself is great - but you do not get very far unless you blend it and go beyond/with previously existing theories. I am all for free thought, it is not practices enough. Too many people are stuck in cults with preexisting leaders (and here I am including organisations in the anarchist movement as well as the communist one).

 

[butchersapron]

Yet:

What theoretical heritage are you drawing on? Which authors? Or as it looks - have you just made it up?

Come on.

 

[The Black Hand]

I LOVE FREETHINKING

Does that make it easier for you to understand?

 

[butchersapron]

Which authors are you drawing on to argue this?

 

[The Black Hand]

Which authors are you drawing on to argue this?

Do you really want a full list?

 

[butchersapron]

Yes please.

 

[october_lost]

Look. Capitalism reproduces itself, just as it produces rich people and poor people. Everybody's a functionary, and that's all. There are no 'evil' capitalists in control. In fact, there's no-one in control. You're advocating bashing people who were born a particular way. Neat thinking. Let's get the disabled, too, eh? It's that foolish. If you'd been born rich you'd not be spouting your anarchist hogwash here, now, would you?

Good post

 

[TopCat]

Damn, man! What is it with you guys and your extrapolation? Where did I say the rich were the same as us? I didn't. Where did I suggest asking nicely? Oh. Look. I didn't. Where did I moralise? Surprisingly enough, I didn't. What I pointed out was that demanding this and that whilst accepting the continuation of capitalism was doomed as a tactic.
There can be no fairness within capitalism: it's a social system that's based on the exploitation of the majority by the minority, and the only way of changing is by having a conscious, democratic social revolution that transforms society into a classless, stateless, moneyless society based on the common ownership and democratic control of the means of production.

Who's a muppet? Certainly not me, although I wonder who's got their fist up your bum.

Historically, with the last batch of "Bash The Rich Marches" we demanded nothing...

That was the whole point. There was nothing they could ever offer to appease us. Our banner at the front read only "Behold! Your future Executioners!"

 

[Geri]

Oh dear, some muppet has gone and booked his coach for the wrong day!

This is why you should never let men do anything without checking it for them first.

 

[TopCat]

Yes please.

Butchers!