Athens Greece: Cops murder a 16 year old

[co-op]

"useful dupe" .

Right.

I'm not sure if you've noticed that I'm not a Stalinist yet but, just to clarify, I'm not.

Neither do I trust the likes of right wing anti-soviet historians like Robert Conquest who you seem to place so much faith in. Or your correspondingly ridiculous figures for the deaths "caused" by Stalin and Mao. 60-80 million? These are just plucked out of the air. Do you really have no idea of what was going on in the 20th century? That the choice for millions of people wasn't "Stalin or something fluffier" but was "Stalin or Hitler"? Ditto for Mao, it was Mao or the Japanese/KMT? Where death, murder,rape,torture etc was pretty much guaranteed for millions?

Naive anarchist bullshit like this is exactly why it's so hard to take anarchism seriously. And I apologise to the non-naive versions who post here, I'm not trying to include everyone in that category.

 

[Captain Hurrah]

He's a Trot, or ex-Trot I think.

 

[co-op]

He's a Trot, or ex-Trot I think.

Of course, hence the obsession with Uncle Joe. I'm such a weedy snivelling popular fronty social democrat wanker that I forget my lefty feuds.

 

[Captain Hurrah]

But like you say, these crude, emotional outbursts against STALINISM and perceived STALINISTS also sees repeated the kind of sensationalist mega-death propaganda (which has sought to discredit socialism in general) you find on the right. He doesn't know about Mao-era China for a start. It's as if both the Russian and Chinese revolutions were just a series of BAD showpiece events behind which were to be found BAD MEN suffering from personality disorders. If you find such things dubious, and want to look at it critically, then you are a STALINIST, or an APOLOGIST FOR EVIL.

 

[sunnysidedown]

Out of curiosity CH, what would you recommend as a decent (as non partizan as you can get) read on that particular historical era?

 

[Captain Hurrah]

Not one thing on its own I'm afraid. What I would recommend is to put effort into reading widely, from the outdated to the most recent, from various sources and perspectives, even those which for reasons of prejudice you don't 'like.' Then make your own mind up as best as you can. I don't believe you can just do that with one book. And what is non-partisan? Who gets to decide? I just don't buy ayatollah's version of history. People suffered. People died. Well, yes, state the bloody obvious. It isn't necessarily whataboutery, nor or defence of a particular and now discredited interpretation of socialism, but we should be able to ask with or without his permission who, what, where, when, why, and how? Is there only One True Way of looking at the past? Who has done the research, who has constructed the narrative, what is the politics behind it, the conscious agenda, if there is one? And his position, when you strip away the pejorative vocabulary and embarrassingly stilted language, is just one side of the same Leninist political coin. Shouting STALINIST at someone is just shit to be frank.

 

[sunnysidedown]

Some fair points there CH, not looking for the one book containing all answers but maybe a few pointers to some recommendations - it's a bit of a minefield out there for the layman like myself.

 

[Captain Hurrah]

Will send a PM. Other side of the world right now.

 

[sunnysidedown]

Cheers fella.

 

[rekil]

Man kills himself in central Athens over debt.

An elderly man shot himself in the head on Wednesday in Athens central Syntagma Square, a focal point of anti-austerity protests, reportedly crying out that he did not want to leave his children in debt.
Police said the 77-year-old, whose identity was not revealed, killed himself outside the Syntagma metro station, around a hundred metres (yards) from parliament, which for two years has been the main rallying point for demonstrations against government austerity measures.

 

[butchersapron]

His Death Note

"The Tsolakoglou government has annihilated all traces for my survival, which was based on a very dignified pension thatI alone paid for 35 years with no help from the state. And since my advanced age does not allow me a way of dynamically reacting (although if a fellow Greek were to grab a Kalashnikov, I would be right behind him), I see no other solution than this dignified end to my life, so I don’t find myself fishing through garbage cans for my sustenance. I believe that young people with no future, will one day take up arms and hang the traitors of this country at Syntagma square, just like the Italians did to Mussolini in 1945"

War.

And i think there will be tonight.

 

[DrRingDing]

That should rally the troops. The poor fuck.

 

[AKA pseudonym]

His Death Note



War.

And i think there will be tonight.

yup... im hearing reports of over 2000 out on the streets at the mo, with big plans for tomorrow

 

[frogwoman]

An old mate of mine who i know from mental health stuff whose joined one of the very far left/ trot parties over there (not CWI, another group that doesn't stand in elections) has been posting a lot of updates about this on facebook, some of the most horrifying stuff i've read in ages. I will ask him if he will register here and post some of the pics he's taken, some of them really are incredible.

 

[ska invita]

His Death Note



War.

And i think there will be tonight.

Its no mistake that the BBC report (on the website) emits the last line of the note which says " I believe that young people with no future, will one day take up arms and hang the traitors of this country at Syntagma square, just like the Italians did to Mussolini in 1945""
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17620421

 

[ska invita]

An old mate of mine who i know from mental health stuff whose joined one of the very far left/ trot parties over there (not CWI, another group that doesn't stand in elections) has been posting a lot of updates about this on facebook, some of the most horrifying stuff i've read in ages. I will ask him if he will register here and post some of the pics he's taken, some of them really are incredible.

What kind of thing?

 

[frogwoman]

His pictures are mostly of demos and people fighting the police, also trotskyist and anarchist groups' advertising banners (i guess both illegal and legal) round the city

His updates are about things like people raiding supermarkets to give to the crowds outside. Horrible almost 28 days later type stuff People being hit with tear gas, riot police firing "warning shots" etc at demonstrators. He has also written some amazing essays about it.

I've asked him to register and he says he will do so hopefully he'll put some pics up later.

 

[butchersapron]

Its no mistake that the BBC report (on the website) emits the last line of the note which says " I believe that young people with no future, will one day take up arms and hang the traitors of this country at Syntagma square, just like the Italians did to Mussolini in 1945""
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17620421

Also left out: "my advanced age does not allow me a way of dynamically reacting (although if a fellow Greek were to grab a Kalashnikov, I would be right behind him),"

 

[manny-p]

Also left out: "my advanced age does not allow me a way of dynamically reacting (although if a fellow Greek were to grab a Kalashnikov, I would be right behind him),"

fucking bbc-protecting us from the truth

 

[Dimitris]

This is the hand written message of the poor man.

His message translated in english :

The Tsolakoglou* occupation government literally
nullified my ability to survive with a decent pension,
which I had to pay (without government aid) for 35 years.

Since I am of an age that prevents me from giving a substantial response
(without of course ruling out the possibility of following a kalashnikov-wielding Greek),
I cannot find any choice other than a dignified end, before I would have to resort
to rooting through the garbage for my nutritional needs.

I believe that the youth without a future will one day take up arms and hang the
national traitors upside down at the syntagma square, as the Italians did in 1945
with Mussolini (Piazzale Loreto of Milan)

[*Georgios Tsolakoglou was a Greek military officer who became the first
Prime Minister of the Greek collaborationist government during the Axis Occupation
in 1941-1942.]

 

[Dimitris]

Some photos of yesterday and the gathering at Syntagma Square here : http://athens.indymedia.org/local/w...077274761_1359741555_3452205_1345946962_o.jpg

 

[ayatollah]

Out of curiosity CH, what would you recommend as a decent (as non partizan as you can get) read on that particular historical era?

Read as widely as you like , but apart from contemporary enthusiasts for the Stalin era , ANY account from any reputable historian is going to rack up the body count from the Stalinist regime's forced collectivisation and purges and gulag deaths into tens of millions - likewise with Mao's China. By the way the last surviving Stalinist model regime in the world, North Korea ,so cocked up its economy that about 1.5 million died in the famines of the 1990's. Also not True ?

You guys Have to grasp that "Stalinism" is a CLASS-based system - substituting the rule of the working class for the rule of a bureaucratic class - based though on State ownership of property - hence its ability to fool lots of people that the USSR, and Mao's China were "Socialist". (North Korea is practically a stalinist MONARCHY FFS ! - but still based on state ownership of property)You can be as unwilling to face up to the reality of "Stalinism" or "state capitalism" as you want - stay in denial about these system's crimes and COUNTER REVOLUTIONERY nature - but that's your problem and intellectual cowardice.

Revolutionery socialists see "Stalinism" for what it was and is - the corruption of the aims of socialism for the benefit of a new bureaucratic class. Live in your historical denial bubble, guys. As a revolutionery socialist I don't NEED to deny the crimes of Stalinism - because that isn't socialism, and certainly not what I have struggled for.

Hence the unashamedly Stalinist KKE, uses the language of socialism, but its "vanguardist" .. "only the KKE has the right to rule on behalf of the working class" ideology , means it cannot work positively with other Left groups, and has a vision of socialism which is a bureaucratic tyranny , NOT a democratic workers state.

Good luck with your wider reading ... you certainly need it !

 

[frogwoman]

i don't think that means all KKE supporters are scum though ayatollah - for a long time it has had a base in the working class and in unions despite the shitty politics. Even though i strongly disagree with both of them on a number of points I've been interested to read what papageorgiou and dimitris have to say since they are on the ground and are living through it every day and I hope they both carry on posting.

 

[Captain Hurrah]

Sweeping arrogance from someone so shit.

 

[audiotech]

Europe on suicide watch.

 

[butchersapron]

Research in the Lancet on the effects of the recession on suicide rates.

 

[ayatollah]

i don't think that means all KKE supporters are scum though ayatollah - for a long time it has had a base in the working class and in unions despite the shitty politics. Even though i strongly disagree with both of them on a number of points I've been interested to read what papageorgiou and dimitris have to say since they are on the ground and are living through it every day and I hope they both carry on posting.

You are 100% right Frogwoman.. the KKE has a solid working class base - I'm quite sure some of the best militants are in it -- as was the case with the CPGB in its heyday in Britain. Which makes its hyper sectarian politics utterly tragic. MOST of the best industrial militants were in the Chilean CP in the Allende era - and look where that (admittedly different) strategy led them. The KKE , mass working class party that it IS, appears to be stuck in "third period stalinism" - with its extreme vanguardism and hostility to the rest of the left, which is admittedly quite different to most postwar Communist parties - and it DOES appear to have a serious revolutionery agenda, and quite sophisticated understanding of where, for instance the Chilean CP went wrong. By the way I don't think Dimitris is anything to do with the KKE - and yes his posts , AND papageorgiou's, are facinating.

Unfortunately it is still the same party, heart and soul which wiped out its Left rivals in the pre and post war civil wars, and which has a vision of "socialism" which is about as far from a democratic socialist workers state as could be. Believe me I wish the KKE didn't have the politics it does.. but it simply DOES, and this spells disaster eventually for the undoubted large numbers of working class militants in its ranks. I had assumed you were a SP member, Frogwoman ? (working in TUSC). In which case surely you are as up to speed (unlike Captain Hurrah and his ilk) as anyone on the nature and tragedy of stalinism and stalinist -but-working class-based political parties ? Trotskyism has its own political shortcomings.. but it has always had a VERY firm grasp of the nature of "stalinism" - if only because the stalinists have murdered so many of em !

 

[frogwoman]

You are 100% right Frogwoman.. the KKE has a solid working class base - I'm quite sure some of the best militants are in it -- as was the case with the CPGB in its heyday in Britain. Which makes its hyper sectarian politics utterly tragic. MOST of the best industrial militants were in the Chilean CP in the Allende era - and look where that (admittedly different) strategy led them. The KKE , mass working class party that it IS, appears to be stuck in "third period stalinism" - with its extreme vanguardism and hostility to the rest of the left, which is admittedly quite different to most postwar Communist parties - and it DOES appear to have a serious revolutionery agenda, and quite sophisticated understanding of where, for instance the Chilean CP went wrong. By the way I don't think Dimitris is anything to do with the KKE - and yes his posts , AND papageorgiou's, are facinating.

Unfortunately it is still the same party, heart and soul which wiped out its Left rivals in the pre and post war civil wars, and which has a vision of "socialism" which is about as far from a democratic socialist workers state as could be. Believe me I wish the KKE didn't have the politics it does.. but it simply DOES, and this spells disaster eventually for the undoubted large numbers of working class militants in its ranks. I had assumed you were a SP member, Frogwoman ? (working in TUSC). In which case surely you are as up to speed (unlike Captain Hurrah and his ilk) as anyone on the nature and tragedy of stalinism and stalinist -but-working class-based political parties ? Trotskyism has its own political shortcomings.. but it has always had a VERY firm grasp of the nature of "stalinism" - if only because the stalinists have murdered so many of em !

yes, i'm in the SP.

I agree with you but I think that there are reasons why people might have joined a "stalinist" party such as the KKE or the old CP over here. Perhaps they were the ones there during strikes and during community struggles. Perhaps the rest of the left wasn't around then. Perhaps people had a family history of being in the KKE linked to the war and so on - don't forget many people in that party also died in the war etc. I agree with you re the KKE's politics. However I'm not altogether convinced the way to talk to these people is just to have a go at them and say that any sensible person wouldn't be a stalinist.

I've lived in a country with a formerly stalinist government and a huge number of people are really nostalgic towards stalinism not because it was any good but because of the complete utter social catastrophe that followed it (1/4 of the country having emigrated, young girls forced into prostitution, kids as young as ten living on their own due to their parents having moved away, extremes of wealth with most of the working class unable to go into many of the shops). Is the way to engage with them to tell them that the times of relatively low crime, social breakdown etc were all a lie (especially older people)? I'm not sure that it is.

 

[co-op]

surely you are as up to speed (unlike Captain Hurrah and his ilk) as anyone on the nature and tragedy of stalinism and stalinist -but-working class-based political parties ?

It's possible to believe that Stalinism was tragic but also to be sceptical about the facile anti-Stalinism bandied about by the motley and self-righteous collection of rightists, trots, anarchists and liberals that get all excited by being more anti-soviet than thou.

 

[Captain Hurrah]

What are my ilk, ayatollah? Non-Stalinists who seek a little more subtlety and nuance than the out-dated rhetoric and stock answers learned by rote in some irrelevant Trotskyist sect?