Apple iPhone

[editor]

Still though, the browser is probably the best I've used on a smartphone and I'm hoping that iPhone Mk2 is either a bit less of a clulsterfuck or successfully cloned by someone like Nokia (who might actually permit me the luxury of a QWERTY keyboard) - their N800 internet tablet was a pretty good start IMHO, with easy third party development (yay Linux, etc etc) and a not-terrible interface.

The browser is miles ahead of anything I've seen on a mobile and is by far the iPhone's best feature (along with its iPod functionality, whch is also miles ahead of the competition.

Email support isn't up to much though and as a 'smartphone' it lags way behind a host of better featured - and cheaper - phones.

 

[stdPikachu]

Nope, it's because in the rush to get the phone ready, they made it so that everything runs as root. No regular user account at all (it's still unix under the gloss). all 3rd party apps running as root = massive fail.

Dunno how the flip I missed that. The words nose, spite and face spring to mind, or alternatively "how to make your device ship a week earlier but triple the overall length and cost of the project". Massive failage indeed; you'd think with the chance to do it all from the ground up, everything besides the barest of kernels would be in userspace...?!

Sigh.

 

[Sunray]

Apple's sales in the US were incredible - although they did benefit from one of the biggest and most sustained hype campaigns ever seen for a product.

But in the UK - which is what I was talking about - they haven't come anywhere near matching that kind of impact despite their best attempts to crank up the hyperbole-o-meter to 11.

FYI:

They totally mis-understand the UK market. What you have to do here is to launch the product with a bit of advertising and then make it desirable by people telling people that its good. That winds up the sales in the long term.

If you bombard the UK public with hype, we start to get incredibly cynical and then down right stubborn. People will start to find ways to counteract the hype by pointing out all its failing above anything else. Being in cynical mode we choose to believe that 1st. The bar to acceptance as a nice gadget is suddenly much higher.

I point to David Blain in a box for an example of great british cynicism at its finest.

 

[Crispy]

Here's the report: http://www.securityevaluators.com/iphone/exploitingiphone.pdf (pdf)

Unfortunately, once an iPhone application is breached by an attacker, very little prevents an attacker from obtaining complete control of the system. All the processes which han-dle network data run with the effective user id of 0, i.e. the superuser. This means that a compromise of any application gives the abil-ity to run code in the context of that applica-tion which has the highest possible privilege level. Additionally, no address randomization was used in by the operating system. This means that each time a process runs, the stack, heap, and executable code is located at precisely the same spot in memory.

Although Leopard now has address randomisation, so maybe they can port that over.

 

[Crispy]

I point to David Blain in a box for an example of great british cynicism at its finest.

No cut'n'paste on that either

 

[editor]

If you bombard the UK public with hype, we start to get incredibly cynical and then down right stubborn. People will start to find ways to counteract the hype by pointing out all its failing above anything else.

That's just about how I react.

I don't like being on the receiving end of expensively produced hype, no matter what the product and the more people tell me how fantastic something is, the more I like to look closer for the flaws under the hyperbolic gloss.

The attempt to manufacture a US style consumer-stampede 'event' out of the iPhone launch in the UK, complete with store staff hi-fiving and whooping customers was positively embarrassing.

 

[stdPikachu]

Here's the report: http://www.securityevaluators.com/iphone/exploitingiphone.pdf (pdf)

Although Leopard now has address randomisation, so maybe they can port that over.

Cheers for the PDF, it's a good read. Surprised addresses weren't randomised by default since it's been part of Darwin for fecking aaaages, although it's still spoitable - there's always some process or other that knows what address things are at, obviously, it's just generally harder to snoop the kernel from userspace without superuser access. Having address randomisation without any other protective measures doesn't get you anywhere productive.

 

[rocketman]

Gosh that was a fun few pages of reading.
Here's why Apple didn't open up the device for development from day one: Nokia, Palm, Symbian, Microsoft and so on. Now they have hit market with a product their competitors didn't know the insides of, they can open up for devs. Also their OS team was kind of busy trying to do something else as well this year.

As per the oft-quoted UK marketshare numbers, please don't take numbers from the Register, or unattributed 'sources' as gospel. I've been told to expect numbers in the next financial call. An NOP survey this week offers some insight: of 500 people surveyed, Apple has convinced 2 per cent to buy a phone, the rest won't cos it's too expensive. But 2 per cent of 60 million people's still a lot of phones.
Does it matter? Only in the sense that Apple's debut here just might make other handset vendors a little less enthralled to the whims of the network operators, who have dictated features until now, so it's only going to mean better products ahead, so that's a good thing.
It reminds me overall of this old joke from the old jokes home:
Gates vs. GM
For all of us who feel only the deepest love and affection for the way computers have enhanced our lives, read on.
At a recent computer expo (COMDEX), Bill Gates reportedly compared the computer industry with the auto industry and stated,
'If GM had kept up with technology like the computer industry has, we would all be driving $25.00 cars that got 1,000 miles to the gallon.'
In response to Bill's comments, General Motors issued a press release stating:
If GM had developed technology like Microsoft, we would all be driving cars with the following characteristics:
1. For no reason whatsoever, your car would crash........
Twice a day.
2. Every time they repainted the lines in the road, you would have to buy a new car.
3. Occasionally your car would die on the freeway for no reason. You would have to pull to the side of the road, close all of the windows, shut off the car, restart it, and reopen the windows before you could continue. For some reason you would simply accept this.
4. Occasionally, executing a maneuver such as a left turn would cause your car to shut down and refuse to restart, in which case you would have to reinstall the engine.
5. Macintosh would make a car that was powered by the sun, was reliable, five times as fast and twice as easy to drive - but would run on only five percent of the roads.
6. The oil, water temperature, and alternator warning lights would all be replaced by a single 'This Car Has Performed An Illegal Operation' warning light.
7. The airbag system would ask 'Are you sure?' before deploying.
8. Occasionally, for no reason whatsoever, your car would lock you out and refuse to let you in until you simultaneously lifted the door handle, turned the key and grabbed hold of the radio antenna.
9. Every time a new car was introduced car buyers would have to learn how to drive all over again because none of the controls would operate in the same manner as the old car.
10. You'd have to press the 'Start' button to turn the engine off.

 

[editor]

Does it matter? Only in the sense that Apple's debut here just might make other handset vendors a little less enthralled to the whims of the network operators, who have dictated features until now, so it's only going to mean better products ahead, so that's a good thing.

Except that Apple's deal offers consumers the worst kind of deal - zero choice of network, massively hiked prices and zero choice of contract length, thanks to a compulsory 18 month deal.

And then there's a massively restricted choice of third party apps, and the opportunity of having your phone bricked if you dare step outside Apple's dictated terms of use and try and use the phone the way you want to.

I can't see what consumers should be thanking Apple for out of all that lot, to be honest.

 

[rocketman]

Except that Apple's deal offers consumers the worst kind of deal - zero choice of network, massively hiked prices and zero choice of contract length, thanks to a compulsory 18 month deal.

And then there's a massively restricted choice of third party apps, and the opportunity of having your phone bricked if you dare step outside Apple's dictated terms of use and try and use the phone the way you want to.

I can't see what consumers should be thanking Apple for out of all that lot, to be honest.

And here it is again, the same old arguments trotted out on the iPhone thread. Perhaps we should start a 'like iPhone' and a 'hate iPhone' thread, which you could populate with your one-sided selective cadaver of an argument,

 

[pinkmonkey]

They totally mis-understand the UK market. What you have to do here is to launch the product with a bit of advertising and then make it desirable by people telling people that its good. That winds up the sales in the long term.

If you bombard the UK public with hype, we start to get incredibly cynical and then down right stubborn. People will start to find ways to counteract the hype by pointing out all its failing above anything else. Being in cynical mode we choose to believe that 1st. The bar to acceptance as a nice gadget is suddenly much higher.

I point to David Blain in a box for an example of great british cynicism at its finest.

They made the mistake of assuming that 'yuurp' can be treated as one big blob and that we are as happy to pay for our phones as the USA is.
We've got two phones and two datacards for work and get a free upgrade on one of them every six months on average. Yet when I go to the US, everyone I see has got some kind of a brick (usually an ancient blackberry) and they paid for it.

I don't care how good the blimmin' phone is, I'm not paying for it. I spend enough on calls. Sure I'd have one if it was free.

I agree with the cynicism too. We love to moan about new stuff.

 

[paolo]

Sales figures:

In the US the run rate was an average of 13k units per day, over the first 74 days. At the point they reached 1.4 million sales, 250k units were not activated with AT&T. (source: Apple)

In the UK, according to the Register ('reliable channel sources'), O2 had 26,500 activations in the first 14 days. Factoring this up for non activations, gives a sales volume of 17% of the US.

Although Apple have never stated their expectations for UK sales, O2 have said they expect 200k by early jan. This equates to 20% of US sales, comparing with the same period in the US.

As an upside, O2 will have Christmas, as a downside the reaction to the high price has been worse here than the US.

My personal prediction is that they will sell 150k worst case. 200k seems a bit stretchy but is not impossible.

 

[Gromit]

Some of you are forgeting Apple's marketing direction.

Yes its expensive. Its meant to be. If it wasn't the most "look how rich i am I spent all this money cause its the in thing" product it wouldn't sell.

Its not about spec or how good it is. Its does it look cool, do i have bragging rights. Thats Apple's market as they know they can't compete against the bigger boys in pure value for money terms so they have gone for the prestiege market.

I took it to work today and I mentioned i had an iPhone and a nearby girl overheard and wanted to see it. In fact demanded i get it out there and then. Was like ooh that soo cool etc. Thats why people buy em. To impress those impressed by how cool it appears to be.

 

[editor]

And here it is again, the same old arguments trotted out on the iPhone thread. Perhaps we should start a 'like iPhone' and a 'hate iPhone' thread, which you could populate with your one-sided selective cadaver of an argument,

Right. So if I dare disagree with your opinion that Apple's massively restrictive terms of use - complete with intentional 'bricking' for consumers who don't comply - aren't a "good thing" for everybody, then that can only mean that I must "hate" the iPhone, yes?

What an utterly bizarre line of logic.

 

[Pie 1]

What are you trying to achieve here?

Ooh, hang on - just let me check my list of agenda's...


(& Your bemused polite guy/mardy git routine is a little stale tbh. You might want to write some new material.)

 

[Pie 1]

dp

 

[Dask]

Bill Gates reportedly compared the computer industry with the auto industry and stated,
'If GM had kept up with technology like the computer industry has, we would all be driving $25.00 cars that got 1,000 miles to the gallon.'
In response to Bill's comments, General Motors issued a press release stating:
If GM had developed technology like Microsoft, we would all be driving cars with the following characteristics:
1. For no reason whatsoever, your car would crash........
Twice a day.
2. Every time they repainted the lines in the road, you would have to buy a new car.
3. Occasionally your car would die on the freeway for no reason. You would have to pull to the side of the road, close all of the windows, shut off the car, restart it, and reopen the windows before you could continue. For some reason you would simply accept this.
4. Occasionally, executing a maneuver such as a left turn would cause your car to shut down and refuse to restart, in which case you would have to reinstall the engine.
5. Macintosh would make a car that was powered by the sun, was reliable, five times as fast and twice as easy to drive - but would run on only five percent of the roads.
6. The oil, water temperature, and alternator warning lights would all be replaced by a single 'This Car Has Performed An Illegal Operation' warning light.
7. The airbag system would ask 'Are you sure?' before deploying.
8. Occasionally, for no reason whatsoever, your car would lock you out and refuse to let you in until you simultaneously lifted the door handle, turned the key and grabbed hold of the radio antenna.
9. Every time a new car was introduced car buyers would have to learn how to drive all over again because none of the controls would operate in the same manner as the old car.
10. You'd have to press the 'Start' button to turn the engine off.

Did GM really say that?

 

[Crispy]

Some of you are forgeting Apple's marketing direction.

Yes its expensive. Its meant to be. If it wasn't the most "look how rich i am I spent all this money cause its the in thing" product it wouldn't sell.

Its not about spec or how good it is. Its does it look cool, do i have bragging rights. Thats Apple's market as they know they can't compete against the bigger boys in pure value for money terms so they have gone for the prestiege market.

I took it to work today and I mentioned i had an iPhone and a nearby girl overheard and wanted to see it. In fact demanded i get it out there and then. Was like ooh that soo cool etc. Thats why people buy em. To impress those impressed by how cool it appears to be.

And also bear in mind that this was exactly the same market that the original iPod was marketed to.

 

[paolo]

Thats why people buy em. To impress those impressed by how cool it appears to be.

Eek! Leave me out of that demographic, thanks.

(tell you what, deleting heaps of text so you can quote selectively, is reeaaally dull on the iPhone. I think I'm going to stick to making aloof comments rather than reply to any specific post )

 

[rocketman]

Did GM really say that?

Nah, it's a 'source unknown', but still relatively amusing,

 

[editor]

(& Your bemused polite guy/mardy git routine is a little stale tbh. You might want to write some new material.)

Here's an idea for you: if you don't like my responses to your pointless little digs, why not try shutting the fuck up and keeping your snidely comments to yourself?

Problem solved.

 

[rocketman]

Good for consumers - it's not a black and white issue, it's not about 'Apple or nothing', that closed inverse logic some are trapped in, it's about invoking a competitive market (as the handset is intrinsically better for many users, and accompanied by a deluge of hype), so you can't have missed the competitive deals that are hitting the market now - everything from free iPOds from Orange and others when you buy a handset to cheaper handsets, more well-featured devices - all released as an attempt to secure market share against the cupertino barbarians. This relatively recent quote sums it up fairly well:

"Competition in the UK mobile phone retail market has long been intense but the iPhone's arrival has changed the game," said Bill Schuh, vice president for Europe at Callidus Software. "There is a sales frenzy as retailers try both to lure away customers to the iPhone and provide alternatives to it. It means that daily management of how the salesforce and channel are compensated with incentives has become critical. But unless retailers find a more effective, instantaneous way to do this, they face a bleak Christmas once the dust from the iPhone launch has settled."

The people saying this are people who sell sales performance management software.

Link below:
http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/Stock News/859655/

 

[Kid_Eternity]

(& Your bemused polite guy/mardy git routine is a little stale tbh. You might want to write some new material.)

He's a top bloke in real life you know...keep in mind the net and forums tend to distort and magnify tone etc.

 

[editor]

Good for consumers - it's not a black and white issue, it's not about 'Apple or nothing', that closed inverse logic some are trapped in, it's about invoking a competitive market (as the handset is intrinsically better for many users, and accompanied by a deluge of hype), so you can't have missed the competitive deals that are hitting the market now - everything from free iPOds from Orange and others when you buy a handset to cheaper handsets, more well-featured devices - all released as an attempt to secure market share against the cupertino barbarians. This relatively recent quote sums it up fairly well:

The only good things for consumers coming from the iPhone's launch is in spite of Apple's restrictive practices not because of them.

Surely even you'd admit that if every phone manufacturer adopted Apple's tactics - one network provider only, 18 month contracts only, intentional bricking for unlocking phones, closed system and high prices - it would be disastrous for consumers.

Some smartphones may have become cheaper as a result of the Apple launch, but constant price-slashing, network-jumping offers, freebie handsets and hugely cheapo deals have been commonplace in the market for years for all handset manufacturers/networks.

Well, until Apple came along, of course.

 

[jæd]

Good for consumers - it's not a black and white issue, it's not about 'Apple or nothing', that closed inverse logic some are trapped in, it's about invoking a competitive market (as the handset is intrinsically better for many users, and accompanied by a deluge of hype), so you can't have missed the competitive deals that are hitting the market now - everything from free iPOds from Orange and others when you buy a handset to cheaper handsets, more well-featured devices - all released as an attempt to secure market share against the cupertino barbarians. This relatively recent quote sums it up fairly well:

"Competition in the UK mobile phone retail market has long been intense but the iPhone's arrival has changed the game," said Bill Schuh, vice president for Europe at Callidus Software. "There is a sales frenzy as retailers try both to lure away customers to the iPhone and provide alternatives to it. It means that daily management of how the salesforce and channel are compensated with incentives has become critical. But unless retailers find a more effective, instantaneous way to do this, they face a bleak Christmas once the dust from the iPhone launch has settled."

The people saying this are people who sell sales performance management software.

Link below:
http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/Stock News/859655/

Its very easy to tell us what the iPhone isn't and hasn't without looking at what it has given us. But thats the same for any new gadget. Its easy to slate it without looking at the technologies behind it...

There are also another aspect of the iPhone thats good. The introduction of Mac OS X Embedded. An easy to use and reliable phone os. If they can introduce applications on it to it successfully (ie easy to install, don't crash it), they've managed to achieve their goal of a non-spoddy smartphone.

It also bodes well for things like the iTablet...

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Outside the shitty contract thing I don't really think the technical specs at present are really that big a deal or worth getting frustrated with, it's obvious there'll be revisions, software updates and newer versions of the phone from now on. This is just the first attempt and as every early adopter knows you always take a hit in a number of areas to be the first to try a product.

 

[editor]

There are also another aspect of the iPhone thats good. The introduction of Mac OS X Embedded. An easy to use and reliable phone os.

The true test of the iPhone's OS comes when it starts running a proper range of software apps. It's not that hard to be reliable and solid when you're only running a limited amount of in-house apps (WM excepted of course ).

 

[rocketman]

He's a top bloke in real life you know...keep in mind the net and forums tend to distort and magnify tone etc.

Just to second that on the bloke in question, just that here me and him seem to disagree on almost anything, ah well. And he sure gets under me skin with his special 'net manner.

 

[paolo]

(WM excepted of course ).

And Symbian.

 

[rocketman]

The true test of the iPhone's OS comes when it starts running a proper range of software apps. It's not that hard to be reliable and solid when you're only running a limited amount of in-house apps (WM excepted of course ).

Well, it's Unix, so there's good potential, I reckon.

iPhone was always going to be a challenge in the UK market, it's the most advanced in the world for mobile, bar Japan.

Cheaper soon? That feels a safe bet.