Anti-imperialist left

[Proper Tidy]

Appear to be back on here, at least a little bit, so thought I'd do a thread on something that bothers me.

The new new new left that has formed in recent years - post 08, student protests, largely coalesced around Corbyn. In many ways a positive - new blood, people who call themselves socialists or marxists or whatever on telly shows - although tempered by fact that the prominent ones are mostly posh wankers with some really shit politics. That and the huge growth in internet cranky types associated with left. And of course the antisemitism, which was always there tbh, ground into acceptability by the fetishising of I/P over all else.

Anyway, their politics is often a very old anti imperialist socialism of defending Iran and fucking North Korea and strong men, Assad and all that. People with Labour logos in their profiles defending Stalin and stuff.

Used to think it didn't matter about the defend the deformed workers state types cos they were just a handful of dickheads in dead sects, but given this is now the dominant stand of left/socialist/whatever thought for people coming in...

What bothers me is - despite (something that calls itself) socialism being in some ways in the ascendency, certainly more tallied about in mainstream arenas than in any other time in my lifetime - are we actually in the worst possible period for any sort of (this sounds wanky sorry) emancipatory, transformative, working class centred challenge to status quo? Put simply does this set us back more than propel us forward.

Sorry this isn't well phrased or constructed, been while since I translated thoughts into words, hope its intent comes through anyway

 

[TopCat]

What's your approach or analysis?

 

[Proper Tidy]

What's your approach or analysis?

Dunno really. Not being glib, just dunno what to make of it all

 

[newbie]

emancipatory, transformative, working class centred challenge to status quo?

The w/c challenge is coming from the right, isn't it? Whether that's emancipatory is a matter of perspective.

 

[Proper Tidy]

The w/c challenge is coming from the right, isn't it? Whether that's emancipatory is a matter of perspective.

Yeah, and right's ability to step into that space says a lot about new manifestation of left, Corbynism and all that - both in action and perception

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yeah, and right's ability to step into that space says a lot about new manifestation of left, Corbynism and all that - both in action and perception

What is 'Corbynism', though, really? It's not exactly a transformative or even radical left agenda. It's better than the r/w 'New Labour' shite that came before, but that wasn't hard. Looking across Europe, isn't the ability of the right to step into that space a legacy of the utter abandonment of l/w ideas or ideals by nominally l/w parties and movements? Corbynism is at best only a small slide back from that direction of travel, but what successes it has had, and those of the more radical types like Melanchon in France or Podemos in Spain, demonstrate that it is possible for l/w movements to step into that space, even if Corbynism is merely dipping a toe really.

In times of hardship, there has always been space for the right to exploit, though. That's nothing new.

 

[dylanredefined]

North Korea and Iran are terrible in different ways. No way though that the USA could liberate them without making an awful lot of people dead.
So stopping the USA doing something stupid. Is not defending terrible systems. IMHO.

 

[Proper Tidy]

North Korea and Iran are terrible in different ways. No way though that the USA could liberate them without making an awful lot of people dead.
So stopping the USA doing something stupid. Is not defending terrible systems. IMHO.

Yeah agreed but half the problem with trying to critique anti imperialism, especially to people who call themselves anti imperialists, is that you're assumed to be pro imperialism. Neither nor.

 

[Proper Tidy]

What is 'Corbynism', though, really? It's not exactly a transformative or even radical left agenda. It's better than the r/w 'New Labour' shite that came before, but that wasn't hard. Looking across Europe, isn't the ability of the right to step into that space a legacy of the utter abandonment of l/w ideas or ideals by nominally l/w parties and movements? Corbynism is at best only a small slide back from that direction of travel, but what successes it has had, and those of the more radical types like Melanchon in France or Podemos in Spain, demonstrate that it is possible for l/w movements to step into that space, even if Corbynism is merely dipping a toe really.

In times of hardship, there has always been space for the right to exploit, though. That's nothing new.

Yeah fair and Corbynism is not particularly radical, although it often uses the language of radicalism. But eg Podemos which you cite as more radical - yet populist right still filling a vacuum among some w/c voters there aren't they? Like they are across Europe.

 

[Fez909]

Yeah agreed but half the problem with trying to critique anti imperialism, especially to people who call themselves anti imperialists, is that you're assumed to be pro imperialism. Neither nor.

Why would you want or need to critique anti-imperialism?

If you have a problem with defending Iran, then critique that. Anti-imperialism does not equal defending Iran.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Why would you want or need to critique anti-imperialism?

If you have a problem with defending Iran, then critique that. Anti-imperialism does not equal defending Iran.

What does it equal?

 

[Pickman's model]

The politics of the enemy of my enemy is my friend, which is what so much anti-imperialism boils down to, leads to some strange bed-fellows. Wars of conquest or colonisation are clearly imperialist wars. Wars to reduce a regional power I'd say less clear cut. Are all wars involving the usa necessarily imperialist? I'm not so sure.

E2A when I say I'm not so sure I mean I'm not so sure! The biggest winner out of a conflict between the usa and Iran would be Saudi Arabia with sa in the curious role objectively of the tail wagging the American dog...

 

[TopCat]

The politics of the enemy of my enemy is my friend, which is what so much anti-imperialism boils down to, leads to some strange bed-fellows. Wars of conquest or colonisation are clearly imperialist wars. Wars to reduce a regional power I'd say less clear cut. Are all wars involving the usa necessarily imperialist? I'm not so sure.

Well anarchists joining the US supplied YPG comes to mind.

 

[Fez909]

What does it equal?

It's defined by what it's against, not what it's for. The clue is in the prefix.

Just like anti-Fascism doesn't imply pro-Capitalist or pro-Communist or whatever.

If you "critique" anti-imperialism on the basis that some anti-imperialists are pro-Iran, then you concede the term to that ideology and taint it.

When Tony Blair claims to be a socialist, you don't critique socialism to say why he's wrong. You label him as he is, and critique that, and his views.

 

[Proper Tidy]

It's defined by what it's against, not what it's for. The clue is in the prefix.

Just like anti-Fascism doesn't imply pro-Capitalist or pro-Communist or whatever.

If you "critique" anti-imperialism on the basis that some anti-imperialists are pro-Iran, then you concede the term to that ideology and taint it.

When Tony Blair claims to be a socialist, you don't critique socialism to say why he's wrong. You label him as he is, and critique that, and his views.

Yeah I take your point. Yet it's also true that when people define their politics as anti imperialist (often making it the primary feature), they will almost definitely have shit politics and will be defending gas attacks or something in about ten minutes

 

[redsquirrel]

If you "critique" anti-imperialism on the basis that some anti-imperialists are pro-Iran, then you concede the term to that ideology and taint it.

It isn't tainted by the Assadist nutjobs, anti-semites and Putin fanboys that make up the "anti-imperialists".

Socialism has a useful meaning, of course there are differences of aspect but it can be used to describe a politics - one that is aimed at the ensuring the workers control of the means of production.

What useful meaning does anti-imperialism have in the 21st century? IMO none, it's a simplistic term for simplistic politics that hinders rather than aids understanding. I mean you say it's defined by what it is against, but what is that? The US and Israel?

 

[8ball]

What is 'Corbynism', though, really?

From what I can see, it's a fairly normal kind of mainstream social democracy shebang. Nothing that would scare the horses in many European countries.

 

[LDC]

It's also true that when people define their politics as anti imperialist (often making it the primary feature), they will almost definitely have shit politics and will be defending gas attacks or something in about ten minutes

 

[littlebabyjesus]

From what I can see, it's a fairly normal kind of mainstream social democracy shebang. Nothing that would scare the horses in many European countries.

Yes. I guess one difference between what is happening here and, say, Spain or France or Germany, is that there, as here, the mainstream nominally socialist parties retreated from socialism into some kind of New Labour-like iteration and have suffered recently as the failure of that neoliberal project becomes ever more apparent, but there this has resulted in other groups, like Podemos or Die Linke or Melenchon's movement, growing to challenge them. Here, such a separate group hasn't emerged, but the mainstream nominally socialist party has been dragged at least a little bit back towards socialism. Here, what challenge there has been in terms of movements that garner significant support, has come from within the Labour party. Perhaps that is cause for optimism, or perhaps if Corbyn ever does come to power he will quickly prove to be a crushing disappointment.

The bit I think Corbyn enthusiasts get wrong is to laud him prematurely. He hasn't done anything yet, and any government led by him will need to be held to account. We all know what can happen once parties get into power. Rather than 'Corbyn you're so great' it should be 'don't let us down now, you fucker, there are other causes we could have wasted our time on instead'.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Yes. I guess one difference between what is happening here and, say, Spain or France or Germany, is that there, as here, the mainstream nominally socialist parties retreated from socialism into some kind of New Labour-like iteration and have suffered recently as the failure of that neoliberal project becomes ever more apparent, but there this has resulted in other groups, like Podemos or Die Linke or Melenchon's movement, growing to challenge them. Here, such a separate group hasn't emerged, but the mainstream nominally socialist party has been dragged at least a little bit back towards socialism. Here, what challenge there has been in terms of movements that garner significant support, has come from within the Labour party. Perhaps that is cause for optimism, or perhaps if Corbyn ever does come to power he will quickly prove to be a crushing disappointment.

The bit I think Corbyn enthusiasts get wrong is to laud him prematurely. He hasn't done anything yet, and any government led by him will need to be held to account. We all know what can happen once parties get into power. Rather than 'Corbyn you're so great' it should be 'don't let us down now, you fucker, there are other causes we could have wasted our time on instead'.

Isn't that difference mostly to do with the differences in electoral systems though?

 

[rekil]

Proper Tidy - Rohini Hensman's Indefensible might be of interest to you.

Indefensible by Rohini Hensman: Book Review - Areo

 

[Proper Tidy]

Proper Tidy - Rohini Hensman's Indefensible might be of interest to you.

Indefensible by Rohini Hensman: Book Review - Areo

Cheers, enjoyed that. The comment on being oblivious to agency of people was bang on.

That strand of thought seems to boil down to good states bad states, internal repression justified by external forces - can't get my head around squaring that with basic socialism, or even just quite liking ordinary people