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Anelka's quenelle

MellySingsDoom said:
Re. Dioudonne's "anti-Zionism"? Well, his appalling Shoah-themed "song", him describing the Holocaust as "memorial pornography", and him making "gas chamber" comments towards a (Jewish) opponent of his certainly count as "three strikes and you're out" for me as far as he's concerned, and that's just for starters.
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I agree that he's anti-semitic. But anti-semitism is quite compatible with anti-Zionism.

MellySingsDoom said:
And for his "anti-establishment" stuff? Well, hanging around with the "respectable" (ha fucking ha) Front National, and the fact his "career" has made him a wealthy and (God knows why) popular figure, certainly has little (if anything) to with any genuine anti-establishment stuff for me. He may wish he was "anti-establishment", but his views and actions are as tiresomely predictable as they are abhorrent.
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You reckon? I certainly wouldn't have predicted them. They surprised the hell out of me tbh. And the French establishment do seem to see him as an enemy. Why wouldn't they?
 
If this guy isn't anti-semitic. Then hitler just kind of disliked jews.

This guy seems like he has lost the plot. His material seems weak, the pineapple stuff seemed more like the work of a just screaming i hate the jews till hes blue in the face.

As distressing as his existence is it has one useful purpose, if anyone denies his anti semitism or seeks to fudge the issue, then in my mind there motives are transparent
 
phildwyer said:
I agree that he's anti-semitic. But anti-semitism is quite compatible with anti-Zionism.



You reckon? I certainly wouldn't have predicted them. They surprised the hell out of me tbh. And the French establishment do seem to see him as an enemy. Why wouldn't they?
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Re your first point - disagree on the "anti-Semitism is quite compatible with anti-Zionism", on the basis that you do have Jewish people who follow an anti-Zionist line, and I myself have a friend who is an Israeli national (based in Jerusalem at present), who is anti-Zionist himself. I think one has to be very careful in equating anti-Zionists such as my friend and other Jews (didn't VP say he is anti-Zionist? Might be wrong on that one, though), to someone (like Dioudonne for example) who uses "anti-Zionism" as a ill-concealed cover for outright anti-Semitism (see also T Southgate on this one as well)

On your second point - he may well have aligned himself against some of the mainstream French establishment, but he's still a middle-class figure with links to the Front National, a party with some very strong standing in France in areas (I think Butchers put on another thread here some alarming stats on their current rating in some elections (Euro elections?)). He also plays up his ideas and beliefs to the mainstream media in France - hardly someone who deliberately shuns them in order to remain outside the system. And anti-Semitism, once you've educated yourself as what it really is, is fucking tiresome and predictable - if you don't believe me, just subject yourself to Richard Edmonds' "greatest hits" on this one (actually, don't).
 
I do agree with phil in that you can have anti Zionists who are also antisemitic. Just because most aren't it doesn't mean none are
 
frogwoman said:
I do agree with phil in that you can have anti Zionists who are also antisemitic. Just because most aren't it doesn't mean none are
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In cetain circumstances, of course. But I think Phil's point could be seen to be a more general line on the "anti-Zionsim"/anti-Semitism thing, and I think (again) one has to be very careful on that one.
 
MellySingsDoom said:
In cetain circumstances, of course. But I think Phil's point could be seen to be a more general line on the "anti-Zionsim"/anti-Semitism thing, and I think (again) one has to be very careful on that one.
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It depends though on what they mean by Zionism - do they mean the nationalist movement started by Theodor Herzl, do they mean the behaviour of the modern day Israeli state or do they mean 'Jews controlling all the banks' and I think some views of how much power Israel has etc are certainly a bit dodge
 
As an aside - whilst I don't agree with a fair whack with what Phil says on this one, at least he's engaged with me politely, sensibly and provided stuff for me to think about and mull over. Much rather his approach than some other people (who I won't mention), who've stamped all over this thread like drunken imbeciles, and who could be out-argued by my youngest niece.
 
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frogwoman said:
It depends though on what they mean by Zionism - do they mean the nationalist movement started by Theodor Herzl, do they mean the behaviour of the modern day Israeli state or do they mean 'Jews controlling all the banks' and I think some views of how much power Israel has etc are certainly a bit dodge
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For me, I see legitimate anti-Zionism as informed, sensible, and even-handed criticism of the Israeli state and its actions. Much of what else passes for "anti-Zionism" in recent times is disgraceful racist guff. As for Herzl, have to admit I'm somewhat clueless on him (will go and doing some proper reading on him in due course), but in theory, the idea of a homeland for the Jews seems to be a reasonble and legitimate one for me.
 
MellySingsDoom said:
In cetain circumstances, of course. But I think Phil's point could be seen to be a more general line on the "anti-Zionsim"/anti-Semitism thing, and I think (again) one has to be very careful on that one.
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Of course not all anti-Zionists are anti-semites. All I'm saying is that it is possible to be both at once.

A lot of pro-Zionists have been anti-semites too.
 
frogwoman said:
Zionism is one of those words that can mean literally anything depending on who's saying it, its basically meaningless these days, its better to talk about the state of Israel and its government in more precise language IMO
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Yes indeed (see my post #2412 on this one - though I could have explained it more concisely, I concede)
 
MellySingsDoom said:
For me, I see legitimate anti-Zionism as informed, sensible, and even-handed criticism of the Israeli state and its actions. Much of what else passes for "anti-Zionism" in recent times is disgraceful racist guff. As for Herzl, have to admit I'm somewhat clueless on him (will go and doing some proper reading on him in due course), but in theory, the idea of a homeland for the Jews seems to be a reasonble and legitimate one for me.
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Anti Zionism usually went further, criticsing the Zionist ideology on which the Israeli state was founded and the way in which Israel was set up (the war of independence leading to the nakba etc) its definitely not antisemitic in itself. That doesn't mean that some critiques of Israel aren't antisemitic tho
 
phildwyer said:
Of course not all anti-Zionists are anti-semites. All I'm saying is that it is possible to be both at once.

A lot of pro-Zionists have been anti-semites too.
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Your first point - Theoretically, I guess you're right on this one, though currently I'm struggling to think of anyone who fits that bill atm. I'l think on that one.

Your second point - I actually hadn't considered that. Do you have any examples/names for me to look into?
 
MellySingsDoom said:
Your first point - Theoretically, I guess you're right on this one, though currently I'm struggling to think of anyone who fits that bill atm. I'l think on that one.

Your second point - I actually hadn't considered that. Do you have any examples/names for me to look into?
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There are a few who use critiques of Israels actions to hide their real views, dieudonne is one.

There were loads of UK etc diplomats who thought that getting the Jews to Palestine would be a good way of getting them out of Europe
 
frogwoman said:
Anti Zionism usually went further, criticsing the Zionist ideology on which the Israeli state was founded and the way in which Israel was set up (the war of independence leading to the nakba etc) its definitely not antisemitic in itself. That doesn't mean that some critiques of Israel aren't antisemitic tho
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Though I know a fair bit on the set up of the foundation of Israel, the "criticising the Zionist ideology..." is something that hadn't occured to me. Is there anywhere online that I could look further into this to? (I guess Wikipedia et al would be a basic start). Your second sentence - yes, definitely, and that's precisly my issue/problem w/quite a lot a contemporary "anti-Zionism"/criticism of Israel - it just seems to be a piss-poor cover for outright abuse and hatred, as opposed to analysing Israel's actions on a political/class etc basis.
 
MellySingsDoom said:
Though I know a fair bit on the set up of the foundation of Israel, the "criticising the Zionist ideology..." is something that hadn't occured to me. Is there anywhere online that I could look further into this to? (I guess Wikipedia et al would be a basic start). Your second sentence - yes, definitely, and that's precisly my issue/problem w/quite a lot a contemporary "anti-Zionism"/criticism of Israel - it just seems to be a piss-poor cover for outright abuse and hatred, as opposed to analysing Israel's actions on a political/class etc basis.
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Try Ilan Pappe's 'ethnic cleansing of Palestine' and anything by Norman Finkelstein
 
MellySingsDoom said:
Your second point - I actually hadn't considered that. Do you have any examples/names for me to look into?
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Check out Winston Churchill.

Obviously a classic anti-semite, he advocates Zionism as a means of opposing Bolshevism. Or "good Jews" versus "bad Jews" in his charming terminology.
 
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frogwoman said:
There are a few who use critiques of Israels actions to hide their real views, dieudonne is one.

There were loads of UK etc diplomats who thought that getting the Jews to Palestine would be a good way of getting them out of Europe
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I was gonna throw in Dioudonne, as it goes, but I consider him such a rabid and obvious anti-Semite, he offers absolutely nothing to say to any legitimate critique of Israel whatsoever.

Yep, I'd read a long while ago on the UK diplomats thing - yet another shameful part of UK "modern" day history.
 
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