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Anelka's quenelle

phildwyer said:
It's more that Judaism has been constructed (by Christians) as a creed which is peculiarly sympathetic to capitalism, largely on the grounds of its allegedly carnal or objectified nature.

Obviously that has nothing to do with Judaism per se.
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It can be, but then so can Christianity - wasn't that one of Weber's theories about the Protestant work ethic and the spirit of capitalism?
 
frogwoman said:
It can be, but then so can Christianity - wasn't that one of Weber's theories about the Protestant work ethic and the spirit of capitalism?
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Weber's theory is specifically about Calvinist predestination, not Protestantism in general as is popularly supposed--and certainly not about Christianity.

The argument is that uncertainty about one's eternal abode produces the desire to perceive signs of God's favor in one's life, and hence an unconscious but imperative need for earthly success.

It's patent bollocks, basically.
 
phildwyer said:
Weber's theory is specifically about Calvinist predestination, not Protestantism in general as is popularly supposed--and certainly not about Christianity.

The argument is that uncertainty about one's eternal abode produces the desire to perceive signs of God's favor in one's life, and hence an unconscious but imperative need for earthly success.

It's patent bollocks, basically.
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That sounds like a pretty accurate description of certain kinds of contemporary fuck-nut r/w American evangelical Christianity - 'I'm rich because God likes me.'
 
littlebabyjesus said:
That sounds like a pretty accurate description of certain kinds of contemporary fuck-nut r/w American evangelical Christianity - 'I'm rich because God likes me.'
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Yes. However there is a slight problem with their argument: most evengelicals are in fact poor.

According to Weber, this is why they are all mad and stuff.
 
Here's the video of Dieudonne's award and public embrace of noted holocaust denier Robert Fauurisson - note the person he gets to present the award and kiss Faurisson has been made to wear the Judenstern - the yellow star that the nazis made the jews wear and dressed in concentration camps clothes (This is Jacky Sigaux, who i think is jewish and also starred in the anti-semitic film anti-semite alongside both Faurisson and Dieudonne). Listen top the cheers and roaring for Faurisson - not just his entrance but for the holocaust denial views he puts across.

You'll note also, on the top left a video of Dieundonne's political mate and former party ally Alain Soral has a video explaining why the negationist Faurisson 'is right'.
 
phildwyer said:
This is the concept that needs to be criticized.

There is no such thing as productive capital. There can't be, because capital does not exist.

The problem is that many people on the "Left" still believe that financialization is an anomolous development within capitalism. It is not. It is capitalism's true essence laid bare.

Unless and until the "Left" assimilates this fact into its analysis, all that remains of that analysis will be the monosyllabic gruntings of Barney Pig and his ilk.
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Not sure about capital, but the phrase "unless and until" really boils my piss. It's like "over and above" or "cool, calm and collected". :mad:

<goes off contemplating a new thread>
 
butchersapron said:
Here's the video of Dieudonne's award and public embrace of noted holocaust denier Robert Fauurisson - note the person he gets to present the award and kiss Faurisson has been made to wear the Judenstern - the yellow star that the nazis made the jews wear and dressed in concentration camps clothes (This is Jacky Sigaux, who i think is jewish and also starred in the anti-semitic film anti-semite alongside both Faurisson and Dieudonne). Listen top the cheers and roaring for Faurisson - not just his entrance but for the holocaust denial views he puts across.

You'll note also, on the top left a video of Dieundonne's political mate and former party ally Alain Soral has a video explaining why the negationist Faurisson 'is right'.
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That is so fucked up.
 
Here's two pieces in the left-wing counter-punch (and echoed in the left wing Monthly Press milieu) defending Dieudonne. They are both notable for their utter ignorance of what Dieudonne is up to his eyeballs in politically (the Soral/batskin/NF/Le Pen stuff) and their high handed he talks for the youth spiel - this from a pampered a academic who knows nothing of the banlieu's and with her own record of denial and negationism that thinks the NF are left-wing) as well as their attempts to evade the issue and blur the lines of debate by suggesting that the state is bad and does bad things therefore whatever the state doesn't like is both good in itself and damgaging for the state. This is the logic of anti-imperialism used domestically to ridiculous effect.

The Bête Noire of the French Establishment

Blasphemy in Secular France
 
phildwyer said:
Yes. However there is a slight problem with their argument: most evengelicals are in fact poor.
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'They're rich because God likes them. I must become more like them.'

Fits perfectly. The rich evangelist urges his flock to become more like him.

And, lo, they saw that it was good to become more like him, for he was rich, and God loved him.
 
butchersapron said:
Here's two pieces in the left-wing counter-punch (and echoed in the left wing Monthly Press milieu) defending Dieudonne. They are both notable for their utter ignorance of what Dieudonne is up to his eyeballs in politically (the Soral/batskin/NF/Le Pen stuff) and their high handed he talks for the youth spiel - this from a pampered a academic who knows nothing of the banlieu's and with her own record of denial and negationism that thinks the NF are left-wing) as well as their attempts to evade the issue and blur the lines of debate by suggesting that the state is bad and does bad things therefore whatever the state doesn't like is both good in itself and damgaging for the state. This is the logic of anti-imperialism used domestically to ridiculous effect.

The Bête Noire of the French Establishment

Blasphemy in Secular France
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As far as I can see, she puts the concept "multiculturalism" in a French culture where it's actually not appropriate (everyone is supposed to be a French citizen, in theory at least). So yeah, "pampered academic who knows nothing" is right.

Wasn't she unsound on the Yugoslav wars, by the way? Is that what you mean by her own record of negationism?
 
butchersapron said:
Here's two pieces in the left-wing counter-punch (and echoed in the left wing Monthly Press milieu) defending Dieudonne. They are both notable for their utter ignorance of what Dieudonne is up to his eyeballs in politically (the Soral/batskin/NF/Le Pen stuff) and their high handed he talks for the youth spiel - this from a pampered a academic who knows nothing of the banlieu's and with her own record of denial and negationism that thinks the NF are left-wing) as well as their attempts to evade the issue and blur the lines of debate by suggesting that the state is bad and does bad things therefore whatever the state doesn't like is both good in itself and damgaging for the state. This is the logic of anti-imperialism used domestically to ridiculous effect.

The Bête Noire of the French Establishment

Blasphemy in Secular France
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Interesting that she compares Dieudonne to Finkelstein. I don't agree with everything Finkelstein says, by any means, but he's an example of someone who manages to criticise the political use of Holocaust memory without falling into the trap of denying or belittling the Holocaust. Odd that the author here can't see the difference between that and sharing a stage with moronic Holocaust-denialist 'historians'.
 
Idris2002 said:
As far as I can see, she puts the concept "multiculturalism" in a French culture where it's actually not appropriate (everyone is supposed to be a French citizen, in theory at least). So yeah, "pampered academic who knows nothing" is right.

Wasn't she unsound on the Yugoslav wars, by the way? Is that what you mean by her own record of negationism?
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Yep, that's her.
 
butchersapron said:
this from a pampered a academic who knows nothing of the banlieu's and with her own record of denial and negationism that thinks the NF are left-wing
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She doesn't think the NF are left-wing.

Like most sensible people, she believes that the "left/right" metaphor is inaedquate to describe C21st political orientations.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Interesting that she compares Dieudonne to Finkelstein. I don't agree with everything Finkelstein says, by any means, but he's an example of someone who manages to criticise the political use of Holocaust memory without falling into the trap of denying or belittling the Holocaust.
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Really? There are plenty of people around who view Finkelstein as belittling the Holocaust.
 
Idris2002 said:
Wasn't she unsound on the Yugoslav wars, by the way? Is that what you mean by her own record of negationism?
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Seriously though, this is ridiculous.

You (and you're not alone on this thread) seem to be extending the principle that Holocaust denial is no part of legitimate political discourse (with which I agree) to all sorts of other historical conflicts: the Yugoslav wars, the war of Turkish Liberation etc.

At this rate, you'll soon have a line on just about any war anywhere--and those who differ will be deemed not merely wrong but "unsound."

That will deprive the Holocaust of its unique status. Which would be a very silly thing to do.
 
butchersapron said:
Here's two pieces in the left-wing counter-punch (and echoed in the left wing Monthly Press milieu) defending Dieudonne.
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That would be the "right-wing" Dieudonne I suppose?

Strange that a "right-winger" should be defended by "left-wingers" innit?

Either someone is misrepresenting themselves, or the terms "right-wing" and "left-wing" are obsolete.
 
phildwyer in his head:

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phildwyer in real life:

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phildwyer said:
That would be the "right-wing" Dieudonne I suppose?

Strange that a "right-winger" should be defended by "left-wingers" innit?

Either someone is misrepresenting themselves, or the terms "right-wing" and "left-wing" are obsolete.
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Why strange to you? You have already stated your view in this thread that right/left wing no longer exist, so why the "or"? Of have you been 'mis-repsenting' yourself?
 
phildwyer said:
Really? There are plenty of people around who view Finkelstein as belittling the Holocaust.
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But he doesn't. As far as I know, he's very careful not to, because to do so would be totally self-defeating. That's one of the biggest problems here - the likes of Dieudonne do immense harm to the Palestinian cause.
 
phildwyer said:
That will deprive the Holocaust of its unique status. Which would be a very silly thing to do.
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Why would that be a very silly thing to do? Denying the space to make the argument (and the argument is surely there to be made) that the Holocaust is sadly far from unique is a very dangerous thing to do. Shutting down that argument by screaming anti-Semitism at it is a very wrong thing to do.
 
That's not what Johnstone does though. She doesn't say that the holocaust is not unique as far as I know. She has defended some very very dodgy political positions though.

To give some idea of her politics she was part of the 'committee to defend slobodan milosevic' and wrote that the srebrenica massacre did not happen or was greatly exaggerated. Now we definitely weren't told the truth in every way about what happened in the Balkans and Serbian atrocities were exaggerated and massacres of Serbs played down in the media, she is an apologist for some extremely dodgy people however, and while I'm not sure she's an antisemite her view of dieudonne would fit with her pro-russian 'anti imperialism'
 
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