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Anelka's quenelle

You really need to read it all to get the full flavor of Churchill's Victorian snobbery, but here's one appropriate passage:

"Zionism has already become a factor in the political convulsions of Russia, as a powerful competing influence in Bolshevik circles with the international communistic system. Nothing could be more significant than the fury with which Trotsky has attacked the Zionists generally, and Dr. Weissmann in particular. The cruel penetration of his mind leaves him in no doubt that his schemes of a world-wide communistic State under Jewish domination are directly thwarted and hindered by this new ideal, which directs the energies and the hopes of Jews in every land towards a simpler, a truer, and a far more attainable goal."
 
phildwyer said:
You really need to read it all to get the full flavor of Churchill's Victorian snobbery, but here's one appropriate passage:

"Zionism has already become a factor in the political convulsions of Russia, as a powerful competing influence in Bolshevik circles with the international communistic system. Nothing could be more significant than the fury with which Trotsky has attacked the Zionists generally, and Dr. Weissmann in particular. The cruel penetration of his mind leaves him in no doubt that his schemes of a world-wide communistic State under Jewish domination are directly thwarted and hindered by this new ideal, which directs the energies and the hopes of Jews in every land towards a simpler, a truer, and a far more attainable goal."
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That's, well....pretty mental, really. Obviously he had issues with communism/Bolshevism, but I didn't know he went that far off-the-scale with it. Blimey.
 
And I've found this on the Haaretz site (apols for the cut and paste epic - I've tried to link to Haaretz in the past, and the links don't work):

A historian has uncovered a pre-World War Two article Winston Churchill wrote about the persecution of Jews but then decided not to publish. In the long lost article, the British wartime leader disapproved of the treatment they experienced but did say of the Jews: "They have been partly responsible for the antagonism from which they suffer."

Cambridge University lecturer Richard Toye, reflecting on his find, said: "While most people would accept that Churchill was no anti-Semite, this sheds fascinating new light on his views about Jews which were very inconsistent."

While researching in the university's Churchill archives, the historian uncovered the unpublished article in a pile of proofs and press cuttings. "It was a dramatic moment," he said.

"How The Jews Can Combat Persecution," originally written in 1937 when it failed to find a publisher, was finally picked up in 1940 for publication by the Sunday Depatch newspaper.

But when the paper's editor formally asked for permission to use the piece, Churchill's office wrote back and refused, saying publication was "inadvisable."

Within weeks, Churchill became prime minister, leading the fight against the Nazi regime which murdered six million Jews in the Holocaust.

"He may well have had second thoughts. When he looked at it again, he may well have thought it wasn't the most intelligent thing to say," Toye told Reuters in an interview.

He uncovered the article while researching for a book he was writing on "Lloyd George and Churchill: Rivals For Greatness."

In the piece, Churchill argued that "the wickedness of the persecutors" was not the only reason for the ill-treatment of Jews down the ages.

He called Jews sober, industrious and law-abiding and praised their readiness to fight and die for the country they lived in.

But he added: "Yet there are times when one feels instinctively that all this is only another manifestation of the difference, the separateness of the Jew."

Echoing modern-day debates about multi-culturalism, Churchill criticised what he called the "aloofness" of Jewish people from wider society and urged them to make the effort to integrate.

He criticized Jewish employers in the clothing trade for exploiting the readiness of Jewish refugees from Nazi Germany to work for lower wages. He also criticized the refugees themselves for their readiness to accept rock-bottom salaries.

Toye said "I do find it perverse to blame persecuted people for their own persecution. There is a lot of contorted logic there."

Speculating on why the article never saw the light of day, he concluded: "In terms of its potential impact on public opinion, it was one thing to say these things in 1937 but quite different to say them in 1940 when Britain was at war."
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yeah most of forms of racism or sectarianism always have a space for the good other.

what makes the Nazi anti semitism so distinct is that it completely removed such a distinction as it went on, settling instead for the complete annihilation of all jews.
 
revol68 said:
yeah most of forms of racism or sectarianism always have a space for the good other.
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This reminds me of the 70's NF accepting a number of Jewish people into their ranks (apparently OK'd by Tyndall too). I was actually shocked when I read up on that, but apparently it's 100% true. A case here of Tyndall and co using individual Jewish people for their own ends.
 
revol68 said:
yeah most of forms of racism or sectarianism always have a space for the good other.

what makes the Nazi anti semitism so distinct is that it completely removed such a distinction as it went on, settling instead for the complete annihilation of all jews.
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It developed into that fairly rapidly as well. Lots of Nazi propaganda from the early 30s bemoans the fact that 'every decent German has his 'good Jew' they're willing to appear not to be so racist tho to make themselves look reasonable later on though.
 
MellySingsDoom said:
That's, well....pretty mental, really. Obviously he had issues with communism/Bolshevism, but I didn't know he went that far off-the-scale with it. Blimey.
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Gives you a real flavor of what was said when the port and cigars went around eh what?

His opening declaration, made with magnificent self-assurance: "Some people like Jews and some do not...."
 
MellySingsDoom said:
This reminds me of the 70's NF accepting a number of Jewish people into their ranks (apparently OK'd by Tyndall too). I was actually shocked when I read up on that, but apparently it's 100% true. A case here of Tyndall and co using individual Jewish people for their own ends.
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There was Joe Cole who got persuaded into going round the gas chambers of a camp with a camera for Ernst zundel and his pals and recording a 'documentary' on why the holocaust didn't exist and it was all a conspiracy.
 
frogwoman said:
There was Joe Cole who got persuaded into going round the gas chambers of a camp with a camera for Ernst zundel and his pals and recording a 'documentary' on why the holocaust didn't exist and it was all a conspiracy.
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Good lord, really? That's absolutely horrible. Obv. Zundel and co are complete scum, it goes without saying.
 
Pickman's model said:
i think we know why he's linking to that site
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You have the mentality of Yagoda. Pathetic weirdo.

1936_genrich_grigorijewitsch_jagoda.jpg
 
phildwyer said:
Not in full it seems. But there's no dispute as to the article's authenticity. Part of it is cited here:

http://majorityrights.com/weblog/comments/864/

Churchill's anti-semitism has been largely covered up, for obvious reasons:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/11/world/europe/11iht-winston.4873300.html?_r=0
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Had a very quick link look at the Majority Rights link, and note there's some stuff on there about "white genocide". Umm.....(conspiraloon alert?)

As for the NY Times - that certainly looks much more legit - will have a read up on that tomorrow (am going to watch a film in 10 mins or so)
 
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phildwyer said:
Yes I do know it. I also know that you are not so motivated. I brought it up here because I'm not only talking to you.
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Well that's not good enough. Argue with the points made. That's the way to defeat anti-Semitism - to argue with the points presented to you, not with the sentiments that you presume to be behind the points being presented to you. You should know this.
 
frogwoman said:
majorityrights.com, that well known historically accurate and not at all racist website??

really phil, now you're taking the piss.
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Have to agree w/this one I'm afraid, Phil. There's also bloody 9/11 "Truther" stuff on said site too.

Will still look at the NYT thing later on, though.
 
frogwoman said:
majorityrights.com, that well known historically accurate and not at all racist website??

really phil, now you're taking the piss.
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The real Tragedy of Dwyer is that he could actually be a good poster if he would just drop the "office joker" persona.
 
Further thoughts from me on the Churchill quote by Irving: it occured to me over my breakfast cup of tea that Irving, given his record for being distinctly less-than-honest with the references he cites for his "research", could well have cobbled together the Churchill quote from mutiple sources, and produced something that Churchill didn't actually say - I certainly wouldn't put it past Irving to do something like that. So with that in mind, I think I'm going to disregard the Irving-presented Churchill quote, and await further details on the Churchill anti-Semitism thing.
 
Right then - have just read that NYT article, and here's some things that stood out for me immediately:

First off, it looks like Churchill didn't actually write the article in question himself, as seen here:

Some experts on the history of British Jews dismissed the article, saying its existence has been well-known and it had never been published because Churchill rejected the views of the ghost-writer who composed it.
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And the identity of the ghost writer? That is cited at the end of the NYT article here:

Gilbert said Churchill had refused to permit the article to be published. He identified the ghost-writer as Adam Marshall Diston, a member of Oswald Mosley's British Union of Fascists. It was not clear why Churchill commissioned him to write an article in his name.
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Richard Toye, the lecturere who found this ghost-written article, had this to say about it:

In an interview with The Sunday Times, Toye said: "I don't want to say he was anti-Semitic, but this sheds fascinating new light on his views about Jews, which were very inconsistent." At the same time he said most people would accept that Churchill was not anti- Semitic.
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And the view of Geoffrey Alderman, a British historian who also writes for the Jewish Chronicle? He say this:

...said in an interview [on] Sunday that "we have known about this for some time" because the article appears in a collection of Churchill's writings compiled by Martin Gilbert, Churchill's official biographer, that was published in the 1980s.
Alderman added: "It does not challenge" the prevailing view of Churchill as supportive of the Jews. "I think it's a flash in the pan."
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So my views on this? It appears that Churchill may well have held some contradictory views of some description of Jewish people. But the quotes listed certainly don't look to provide the "smoking gun" to prove Churchill's anti-Semitism. And in addition, the fact that the article in question was ghost written by an active fascist makes me very suspicious indeed as to the accuracy of said article.

To sum up? This article does not prove that Churchill was an anti-Semite. I await further details/references on this front with interest.
 
MellySingsDoom said:
Further thoughts from me on the Churchill quote by Irving: it occured to me over my breakfast cup of tea that Irving, given his record for being distinctly less-than-honest with the references he cites for his "research", could well have cobbled together the Churchill quote from mutiple sources, and produced something that Churchill didn't actually say - I certainly wouldn't put it past Irving to do something like that. So with that in mind, I think I'm going to disregard the Irving-presented Churchill quote, and await further details on the Churchill anti-Semitism thing.
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It's not a "quote," it's an article Churchill wrote for the Sunday Illustrated Herald. Wikipedia cites it too:

"In the same decade, future wartime Prime Minister Winston Churchill penned an editorial entitled "Zionism versus Bolshevism," which was published in the Illustrated Sunday Herald. In the article, which asserted that Zionism and Bolshevism were engaged in a "struggle for the soul of the Jewish people", he called on Jews to repudiate "the Bolshevik conspiracy" and make clear that "the Bolshevik movement is not a Jewish movement" but stated that:
[Bolshevism] among the Jews is nothing new. From the days of Spartacus-Weishaupt to those of Karl Marx, and down to Trotsky (Russia), Bela Kun (Hungary), Rosa Luxemburg (Germany), and Emma Goldman (United States), this world-wide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilisation and for the reconstitution of society on the basis of arrested development, of envious malevolence, and impossible equality, has been steadily growing.[40]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism
 
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