An open question to all SWP members on u75

[Flavour]

Why has there been no statement by the SWP regarding the fascist infiltration?

Members of the SWP will all already know about the recent events involving Joe Finnon and Diane Stoker, but people who have signed petitions for MAR, UAF or GR but are not members will not be aware of the BNP infiltration. These people should be told that the BNP have their detaills including addresses, phone numbers etc. It is the duty of the SWP to tell them.

Furthermore, with the two fascists exposing the personal details of everyone they know on the left to the BNP, which could be more than 200 people, why won't SWP members expose the personal details of the two fascists? I know for a fact that that the SWP has personal information on Joe Finnon and Diane Stoker, but will not reveal it . I consider this to be protecting the fascists.

In this time of immediate danger to all those on the left, it is up to the SWP to protect and inform its members and all those involved with anti-racism in the North West.

 

[rebel warrior]

In this time of immediate danger to all those on the left, it is up to the SWP to protect and inform its members and all those involved with anti-racism in the North West.

Yep, I am sure the SWP will inform anti-racists in the North West about the latest efforts of the BNP to try and divide the growing movement of opposition to racism and fascism.

The BNP were talking about getting a MEP in the North West this year - all they have achieved so far is ensuring a couple more of their members will probably find it hard to get any sort of decent job in the future. Is pissing about infiltrating far left groups really the sort of thing the BNP would be doing if they were genuinely finding mass support at the polls at the moment? They were stopped from breaking through electorally in June and are now in turmoil about the way forward.

The SWP would not 'protect' anti-racists by doing any of the things you suggested, rather it will protect them by building a mass anti-fascist movement to further marginalise and isolate the Nazis. Unite against Fascism has done a good job so far in this respect with regards to the North West - and there is no reason whatsoever why any of that good work will be undone by a couple of foolish and naive BNP members.

 

[layabout]

I know for a fact that that the SWP has personal information on Joe Finnon and Diane Stoker, but will not reveal it . I consider this to be protecting the fascists.

Most probably legal reasons. The Data Protection Act covers more than just computer data.

 

[Sacred Spirit]

for an alternate view to RW'S.

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=2054233#post2054233

 

[Gumbert]

for an alternate view to RW'S.

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=2054233#post2054233

Aw bless......

cmon snow tiger at least be upfront and truthful that the alternate view in the link is yours....

what you afraid of?

The people here Respect you.....

 

[Sacred Spirit]

Yep, I am sure the SWP will inform anti-racists in the North West about the latest efforts of the BNP to try and divide the growing movement of opposition to racism and fascism.

The BNP were talking about getting a MEP in the North West this year - all they have achieved so far is ensuring a couple more of their members will probably find it hard to get any sort of decent job in the future. Is pissing about infiltrating far left groups really the sort of thing the BNP would be doing if they were genuinely finding mass support at the polls at the moment? They were stopped from breaking through electorally in June and are now in turmoil about the way forward.

The SWP would not 'protect' anti-racists by doing any of the things you suggested, rather it will protect them by building a mass anti-fascist movement to further marginalise and isolate the Nazis. Unite against Fascism has done a good job so far in this respect with regards to the North West - and there is no reason whatsoever why any of that good work will be undone by a couple of foolish and naive BNP members.

Growth of the anti fascist opposition, well yes it could do if the swp stopped helping the fascists gain information to oppose it with and opening doors for them.

Average somewhere around a thousand votes per candidate (higher fig's than previous year), the bnp in the last local elections in Leeds, the admission by RW (another thread) of the upsetting of an ANL stall while a hundred student stood and watched and did nothing, at Leeds Uni', so who was in charge of the swp training there ? so much for building a mass movement, keep the Leeds swp members away from the north west if that's the outcome of their politics at Leeds Uni.

Leeds coalition against war is very small now so I hear, had a swp and nlp co-chair position last year, the nlp members are pretend lefty soc' dem's.
But so what, the stop the war coalition has been dominated by the lefty soc' dem's of the nlp and the trade unions + contribution from the greens, the real powers behind the throne. The swp for all the shoutin were only the dogs bodies who implemented the policies for them.

Item RW may clarify, £4,000 last year (gained through donations) for the Leeds coalition, given away to coach companies, booked by an swp member according to their estimates, decision following swp meeting prior to coalition meeting, not a seat filled, not a coach left the yard, so why ? so who was the 'political trainer' of the swp members ? who were the leaders ?

Another item, Why did the Leeds coalition use the service of the swp for leaflets supplies, when there were printers in Leeds who could supply for lower price ?

It would be more correct, according to the trotskyist policy, to state that the growth of anti fascist/racist opposition would be opposed by both Left and right wing fascists, but RW doesn't have to point that out if he so feels, he can ramble on one sided if he so desires.

The 'left' being the most insidious because so called socialist and so called anarchist have 'belief' in them being " the far left "" rather that correctly analysing them, their 'practice' speaks volumes, loud ones.

 

[BarryB]

Yep, I am sure the SWP will inform anti-racists in the North West about the latest efforts of the BNP to try and divide the growing movement of opposition to racism and fascism.

The BNP were talking about getting a MEP in the North West this year - all they have achieved so far is ensuring a couple more of their members will probably find it hard to get any sort of decent job in the future. Is pissing about infiltrating far left groups really the sort of thing the BNP would be doing if they were genuinely finding mass support at the polls at the moment? They were stopped from breaking through electorally in June and are now in turmoil about the way forward.

The SWP would not 'protect' anti-racists by doing any of the things you suggested, rather it will protect them by building a mass anti-fascist movement to further marginalise and isolate the Nazis. Unite against Fascism has done a good job so far in this respect with regards to the North West - and there is no reason whatsoever why any of that good work will be undone by a couple of foolish and naive BNP members.

These two BNP members were so "foolish and naive" that they outwitted the SWP for a year! And in the end they werent even uncovered by the SWP. They outed themselves. The complaceny shown by the SWP over this matter is quite mind boggling. If there are any more BNP members in the SWP I doubt very much if the SWP will find them.

Barry B

 

[butchersapron]

Yep, I am sure the SWP will inform anti-racists in the North West about the latest efforts of the BNP to try and divide the growing movement of opposition to racism and fascism.

The BNP were talking about getting a MEP in the North West this year - all they have achieved so far is ensuring a couple more of their members will probably find it hard to get any sort of decent job in the future. Is pissing about infiltrating far left groups really the sort of thing the BNP would be doing if they were genuinely finding mass support at the polls at the moment? They were stopped from breaking through electorally in June and are now in turmoil about the way forward.

The SWP would not 'protect' anti-racists by doing any of the things you suggested, rather it will protect them by building a mass anti-fascist movement to further marginalise and isolate the Nazis. Unite against Fascism has done a good job so far in this respect with regards to the North West - and there is no reason whatsoever why any of that good work will be undone by a couple of foolish and naive BNP members.

They could inform other groups than the BNP - just a thought.

Given that you've been claiming that RESPECT has made breakthrough by winning one council seat why are you describing the BNPs performance in achiveing 21 seats in such a way? Any block on their current plans came from the UKIP not from you.

Would you just grow up and face this issue in an open and honest manner - not just attacking anyone who dares ask questions. It really is childish and pathetic.

 

[belboid]

Yep, I am sure the SWP will inform anti-racists in the North West about the latest efforts of the BNP to try and divide the growing movement of opposition to racism and fascism.

The BNP were talking about getting a MEP in the North West this year - all they have achieved so far is ensuring a couple more of their members will probably find it hard to get any sort of decent job in the future. Is pissing about infiltrating far left groups really the sort of thing the BNP would be doing if they were genuinely finding mass support at the polls at the moment? They were stopped from breaking through electorally in June and are now in turmoil about the way forward.

The SWP would not 'protect' anti-racists by doing any of the things you suggested, rather it will protect them by building a mass anti-fascist movement to further marginalise and isolate the Nazis. Unite against Fascism has done a good job so far in this respect with regards to the North West - and there is no reason whatsoever why any of that good work will be undone by a couple of foolish and naive BNP members.

So you're gonna do sweet fuck all then?

 

[Flavour]

well you say you're sure they will but why haven't they?
i was recieving almost daily e-mails from these various groups before this on all sorts of random topics, now something really serious has happened what do we get - silence.
the swp claim its because they're an open book. there's no secrets they've got to hide and hence nothing to worry about. but sorry the whole point of UAF is that the NAZIs are not an ordinary party, not an ordinary butch of racists in fact they're a dangerous and violent organisation. that was the whole point of the campaign.
yet all we get from the swp is cover up by silence and an attempt to protect the fascists (from who?) by not making any information they hold publicly available.
so for all the crap they talk about anti-fascism and anti racism when the chips are down they do nothing, bury their heads in the sand and hope it'll all go away.
they say that pressure reveals the true nature of an organisation. that it's under stress that true character is portrayed by the choices people make. choosing to abstain from the fight. saying there's nothing to worry about. refusing to release essential information - well that just about sums up the bankrupcy of this useless group. it shows what they're really all about doesn't it - nothing.

 

[Zonk]

Yep, I am sure the SWP will inform anti-racists in the North West about the latest efforts of the BNP to try and divide the growing movement of opposition to racism and fascism.

Er, you've done no 'informing' and everyone already knows-so you're crap.

Your arogance as usual is displayed perfectly in this paragraph.

Your methods suck and you wouldnt know a fascist if it bit you on the arse.

Not much good for anti-fascist work is it?

 

[rednblack]

the only way anyone outsideof manchester is going to find out about this whole sorry affair is if we do our best to spread this story around - as a warning to anyone considering working with the swp in the future

any anti war, anti capitalist or politics weblists, forums or public spaces we are involved in should be told

 

[Pilgrim]

I had to inform the Green Party myself, because I wasn't totally confident that the SWP/RESPECT?UAF would be honest and accountable enough to do so. The Green Party is (at least as far as I know) still affiliated to UAF.

Question: If the SWP is a truly revolutionary party, why can it not even detect bog standard infiltration by a couple of BNP plants who had to out themselves before anyone in the SWP noticed? What possible confidence can would-be revolutionaries (Or indeed anyone else!) have that the SWP isn't riddled with State agents (Special Branch/MI5).

Considering that, is it not entirely plausible to wonder whether the SWP is actually controlled by State agents who are doing an awful lot more than merely informing?

Answers please, unless this is another thing that the SWP wishes to sweep under the carpet.

 

[Flavour]

maybe that's why the SWP are so shit

Leadership are MI5, undermining the rank and files naive hopes for revolution under an SWP banner.

SWP - Leninist? No, I don't think so. Not plausible.

And the comments from SWPers on this thread has only reinforced my view

 

[Pilgrim]

Checked the SWP and RESPECT sites not long ago, still nothing on the infiltration debacle.

Come on Swappies, when are you going to leap into your "SWP? State-run or State-infiltrated? I've never been so insulted!!!" act? Or are you keeping silent because it might well be true?

I was expecting a "Pilgrim must be a burnt-out and embittered ex-member" outburst by now at least. Seriously though, your organisation and its various front groups can only suffer by saying (and seemingly doing) nothing about this.

This issue is not going to go away by your simply pretending that nothing of note has happened. All those whose details may now be in the possession of the fash need to be informed and a thorough, open and accountable debate had about the relevent issues, with someone actually taking responsibility for this debacle. And by 'taking responsibility' I don't mean some lower-level members being made to fall on their swords in order to protect the seemingly omnipotent leadership. They seem desperate to take absolute control of the running of the party and claim all the credit for its successes (whatever they may be, can't think of any offhand), so let them act in a mature and responsible fashion and take some of the blame when things go wrong. After all, it was on their watch that this happened.

THIS NEEDS TO BE SORTED OUT, NOW!

 

[Solidarnosc]

Oh FFS.

Write to the national office if you're so arsed.

 

[Zonk]

Oh FFS.

Write to the national office if you're so arsed.

I suppose we can quote you on that can we?

Trot scum.

 

[trickytree23]

I am sure an announcement will be made by the SWP as soon as the BNP publishes its moles 'findings'. The rank and file in Manchester have already been made aware of the situation through party members.

this is just the usual baseless SWP bashing that to be honest we're used to by now.

there is no point going on and on about how easy the SWP is to infiltrate when i can say with confidence that they were suspected by NO-ONE, including members of numerous left factions.
It happened.
As the biggest and most visible trotskyist organisation on Manchester campus we were an obvious target . They have fuck all on us anyway, if you want to know about the SWP, read the fucking paper! I'm more concerned about the nazis having access to peoples addresses.

Yes there are lessons to be learnt, and I'm sure they will be in the future. In the mean time we need to put aside all this and rally against these fascists.

 

[Pilgrim]

I'm arsed because there will be many people who were on the lists that these two vermin had access to, and not only SWP members either.

This is not simply a case of SWP members alone being affected. The lack of security has left members of other groups and private individuals at possible risk of attack by fascists. I have a great deal of sympathy for those who knew this pair and were taken in by them, no-one likes to be betrayed by those they consider friends and comrades, it is in many ways the worst betrayal of all, but that said the standing of the SWP and its front groups (which is low at best among many activists) can only be harmed further by a refusal to even comment on this matter, let alone do something about it and be seen to do something about it.

A basic vetting procedure (and yes, I was vetted before I joined the Greens) may have done something to alleviate the damage done by these vermin. This also betrays the poor organisation that led to these two being promoted to positions of such importance in such a short period of time. Something as basic as feeding them false info and seeing whether it ended up in fash hands, or a simple background check may have exposed them for what they are.

Again, I pose the question, if it was so easy for the BNP to infiltrate the SWP, then what confidence does the rest of the movement have that the SWP isn't also infiltrated by State moles, who may be in a position to dictate party policy?

 

[Sacred Spirit]

Aw bless...... at least be upfront and truthful that the alternate view in the link is yours....
what you afraid of?
The people here Respect you.....

Gumpoo I think the word to describe your contribution as well as your condition is cretinism.

up front (is that a political position) and truthfull --- I would have thought the name tag on the link post would have revealed all, was that being diss-honest ? well you admit to smoking joints -- but What Do you put in your drink.

The 'Fact that the Manchester SWP members, in a year period coudn't tell a right wing fascist from a left wing fascist does reveal a tale.

There are some interesting points raised so far on the thread, by politically serious people, care to answer them ?

Is your flipant attitude anything to do with you originating in the north west, blackburn, and as such are as incapable of grasping the serious nature of the practices of the SWP (not only manchester and the NW) in it's threat to all groups-anarchist and socialist amongst others.
Or is it the conscious understanding of an amused left wing fascist ?

(read the thread and the many points)

 

[Solidarnosc]

I suppose we can quote you on that can we?

Trot scum.

Ouch. I'm so hurt. Mummy, he called me trot scum!



To be honest, I've been out of political activity mainly because of work commitments and preparing to move to London for University, I don't know what's going on in the SWP - you can quote me on that. However, I have enough faith in the party leadership to be able to deal with it in the proper manner, which they are doing.

 

[Zonk]

Solidarnosc.
So fill us in student. What exactly is this 'proper manner'? I'm sure we are all very interested to learn.

I would have thought all members (and associates) by now would have been emailed a quick edition of Party Notes. Any idea what was in it? 'Keep shtum and pretend nothing has happened?' Or, 'don't worry idiots our security is perfect'?

Your faith speaks volumes....

 

[Sacred Spirit]

I am sure an announcement will be made by the SWP as soon as the BNP publishes its moles 'findings'.

this is just the usual baseless SWP bashing that to be honest we're used to by now.

there is no point going on and on about how easy the SWP is to infiltrate when i can say with confidence that they were suspected by NO-ONE, including members of numerous left factions.

Yes there are lessons to be learnt, and I'm sure they will be in the future.

In the mean time we need to put aside all this infighting for the time being and rally against these fascists.

Obviously we now await on the BNP or at least the swp members do, --- didn't the bnp publish pictures and a comment already, or are the other contributers halucinating ?

UBSWPBASHING it's the magic god word again, only this time they don't get off the hook, the disbandment of the swp is now a subject of discussion

Why should they be suspected by people of other groups, they had swp Credentials, it's the credentials ot the swp itself that is now being questioned and how did a group of stalinist's led by Gluckstein ever get them.

The lesson should have been learned long ago............. Others have/did.

Infighting -- goes on between those within the same camp, more are now holding the position that the swp are not of the same camp, so NO infighting is happening.

People ARE rallying against fascist's, they are opposing the SWP left wing fascist posers.

 

[trickytree23]

Infighting -- goes on between those within the same camp, more are now holding the position that the swp are not of the same camp, so NO infighting is happening.

by infighting i meant fighting between the left when its better the fight the same fight....apologies if I was not understood.

I know people see this as an easy opportunity to attack the SWP, but to be honest its a warning for all of us. I am aware other parties have more strict guidelines regarding their membership, but i suppose now is a better time than ever to put those procedures under review.
The last thing we want to do however is to appear as a bunch of paranoid nuts like the fascists, simply because we dont have anything to hide. I dont want to turn away perfectly good comrades because for example i've seen them in an england football shirt or they seem too enthusiastic.
Like i've said before, my main concern was their access to addresses and numbers of activists whom i consider my friends and allies.

 

[Gumbert]

Gumpoo

up front (is that a political position) and truthfull --- I would have thought the name tag on the link post would have revealed all, was that being diss-honest ? well you admit to smoking joints -- but What Do you put in your drink.

The 'Fact that the Manchester SWP members, in a year period coudn't tell a right wing fascist from a left wing fascist does reveal a tale.

Is your flipant attitude anything to do with you originating in the north west, blackburn,

(read the thread and the many points)

I'm under surviellance too...

 

[Sacred Spirit]

by infighting i meant fighting between the left when its better the fight the same fight....apologies if I was not understood.

I know people see this as an easy opportunity to attack the SWP, but to be honest its a warning for all of us. I am aware other parties have more strict guidelines regarding their membership, but i suppose now is a better time than ever to put those procedures under review.
The last thing we want to do however is to appear as a bunch of paranoid nuts like the fascists, simply because we dont have anything to hide. I dont want to turn away perfectly good comrades because for example i've seen them in an england football shirt or they seem too enthusiastic.
Like i've said before, my main concern was their access to addresses and numbers of activists whom i consider my friends and allies.

Oh but I did understand, it's just that I questioned whether the SWP is of the 'left ?

As above post--
"Why should they be suspected by people of other groups, they had swp Credentials, it's the credentials ot the swp itself that is now being questioned and how did a group of stalinist's led by Gluckstein ever get them."

Left of what, the bnp are classed as right wing, the fascist's of Mussolini appeared following the collapse of the social democratic parties of europe in the 1st WW, Stalin appeared next as the left wing fascist, of 'conservatism' as portrayed throught the theories of the soc' dem's, both had been soc' dem's, did they ever change ?

In the early 20's the Russian party called upon the communist party in Britain to JOIN the labour party, both individual and through afilliation, so that they could bring about a development of A LEFT WING within the social democrats, the communist party was not considered to be left wing of anything. I.E. left wing of soc' democracy.
-----------------------------
The BNP in the 70's (to repeat) were stopped from leafleting schools, they have not done so since, untill the SWP through the medium of the stop the war coalition, broke the common policy, the 2 bnp members who joined in Manchester, were they involved in encouraging anti war supporters to leaflet schools ?

2 bnp have been member of the swp for a year, now when exactly did the swp gain the policy of leafleting schools and from where did it get it's policy, from whom ?
Nothing to hide, so can we now have the details ?

Does the swp now have a policy for the removal of the bnp from the school gates ?
If not when are the swp going to disband ?

Not only couldn't the swp members tell a left from a right wing Utopian, neither can anyone else, so that tells the tale in Manchester as well as everwhere else. They ALL know that the bnp are right wing Utopians ..........................work it out.

The left wing is of soc' dem' the Far left, Are the left wing fascists, your fellow members have been admitting to it for years.

Not in-fighting within the socialist field, the swp are not to be considered anymore as to be belonging there.
All socialist/ anarchist groups are being asked to also accept the new policy as a way of clearing out the petty bourgeoir SWP from the socialist field.

Try reading Lenin early 20's for a correct identity of the 'left'

 

[danno_at_work]

This message is hidden because Sacred Spirit is on your ignore list.

This message is hidden because Zonk is on your ignore list




i'm not listening to pillocks

 

[Zonk]

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i'm not listening to pillocks

Very effective. Can't take the truth, stick your fingers in your ears!

Now how about a bag over your head and an orange in your mouth? Sound like fun?

Yes, thought so.

 

[Solidarnosc]

Suddenly, Zonk's posts make so much sense...

 

[Zonk]

How do you lot manage to interact with the every day folks on the street on your paper sales with your fingers in your ears? You do have your fingers in your ears, quite clearly, because you never listen to anybody else's views without reciting a lot of Trot nonsense.

Why do you do that?

Is it because everyone else is so politically immature (bless) that they need educating? Political indoctrinating?

Comment?

Orange?