Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
i doubt it.
Allegations of widespread sexual exploitation of Calais migrants by British volunteers
- Thread starter Casually Red
- Start date
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
yes, pa. it is the urban way.
DrRingDing
'anti-human wanker'
You dismissed my experience of activists having sexual relationships with people where there are massive power issues. You dismissed that claim by saying that activists on this thread have countered that. What activists are you referring to on this thread?
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
Hasn't everyone on this thread said that sexual relations between 'activists' or 'volunteers' and people in the camps is not a good idea (and that sex between aid workers - whether they be working for a charity or not - and people in the jungle has the potential for outright abuse). I'm not going back and reading 20 pages again, but my memory is that everybody has said that - be they an activist or not.
DrRingDing
'anti-human wanker'
Random posters on a bulletin board on an obscure corner of the Internet making righteous statements does not dismiss my experience. If there's people on here with direct experience that want to counter that...then let's have it out. But just claiming vague "activists" on this thread is meaningless and a bit rude.
free spirit
more tea vicar?
I really didn't think when this thread started that it was likely to get worse than the OP by being dragged off topic into random old bunfights....
trashpony
Hag
Why is it rude? Who is it being rude to?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
anyone would take you for a newbieI really didn't think when this thread started that it was likely to get worse than the OP by being dragged off topic into random old bunfights....
Treacle Toes
Time
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
your experience of being dismissed?
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
But it's you who has been using terms like 'activists on this thread':
Anyway, if you wanted to have a discussion about activists groups and the sometimes abusive relationships that happen unchecked, the assumption that because the group is anarchist, anti-authoritarian, then things must be okay - yes, I'm with you, I've seen it - usually if, not always, male on female abuse. That's a discussion to be had. However I don't think it maps easily onto this discussion. People involved in the camps might have been keen to point out the context in which relationships might be happening in, but have still been saying it's not a good idea.
DrRingDing
'anti-human wanker'
This is what I'm referring to: My experience of activists fucking people where there is a huge power imbalance being dismissed by trashpony's "every single 'activist' on this thread".
What activists on this thread has said that and what is their experience?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
DrRingDing
'anti-human wanker'
You may think we should sweep this under the carpet - nothing to see.
andysays
Love and solidarity
No one has "dismissed your experience" (and what a wanky phrase that is, IMO). trashpony and others have said that their experience isn't the same as your experience, and pointed out that more or less everyone on this thread has said that, although it happens, activists/volunteers having sex with refugees isn't a great idea but, for various reasons, there is no authority which can prevent all such incidents taking place.
But if you have particular experience of such things happening, you're as able as anyone to actually recount those experiences in some detail, including what you did to either stop them happening or discuss/explain to others why they shouldn't happen in future. So far, you don't appear to have done any of that.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
why do you suggest i should think that?
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
Some issues with his footwork and the rise and fall was barely perceptible. I'd go with a
Athos
Well-Known Member
In fairness, trashpony didn't refer to "more or less everyone on this thread". She particularly referred to "activists", and specifically to "every single" one of them. DrRingDing is asking who the activists are, and for evidence that every single one of them has said it isn't okay. It's not an unreasonable question if trashpony is going to stand by the strict accuracy of what she wrote. But, he would to be hair-splitting if she really meant that "the majority of people on this thread, including some who are activists on this issue...", which I don't think would particularly undermine the point she was making i.e. that others' experience differs from DrRingDing's (which, as you say, isn't the same as dismissing his experience).
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
more of aSome issues with his footwork and the rise and fall was barely perceptible. I'd go with a
i think you'll find
trashpony
Hag
I was talking about the people on this thread who have spoken about their experiences in the Jungle, none of who have said they thought sexual exploitation of vulnerable people is okay. I'm not dismissing his experience, just saying that it isn't the view of anyone I know who volunteers there (some of whom have posted on this thread).
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
Yep, I read what you said as exactly that.
There are genuine problems of power in left/anarcho/eco groups, from the tyranny of structurelesness through to actual abuse. But people's responses about the jungle in this thread shouldn't be seen as ignoring or avoiding that. If you want to have that discussion DrRingDing, have it.
Athos
Well-Known Member
Yes, but I think he was driving at the difference between none of those people saying it's ok, and all of them saying it's not ok (which, strictly speaking, is what you claimed), and asking for evidence of that - both their status as 'activist' and where they said it's not ok.
I agree, though, that, since the central thrust of what you're saying is simply that your experience and those of the peope involed with this issue who have posted on this thread is differnt from his, it's a fairly moot point.
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What's also risky is people who are themselves emotionally vulnerable working with vulnerable people without recognising that they themselves are vulnerable because after all they're helping the vulnerable. Which is why I brought in a professional situation as an example of what kinds of structures people should have around them so that they are less likely to confuse their own vulnerability and neediness for that of someone else. Unfortunately most people in professional health and social care organisations don't have these support structures either, the method is ensuring compliance to codes of ethics rather than self-understanding; both are needed IMO but that kind of structure is expensive.
Manter
Lunch Mob
I have said I don't think it's appropriate. As has free spirit.
Treacle Toes
Time
Has anyone on this thread actually said it's appropriate? 
People have been clear about how difficult it is to stop it when it happens and why but that is absolutely another thing.
People have been clear about how difficult it is to stop it when it happens and why but that is absolutely another thing.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
yeh but just cos no one's said it's appropriate try walking a hundred yards in ringding's shoes etc spluttery nonsenseHas anyone on this thread actually said it's appropriate?
Manter
Lunch Mob
It's also worth clarifying what the jungle is, and how unregulated it is. It's difficult to understand if you haven't been there...its people camping on scrubland by the side of a road. Police periodically try and prevent you from driving up the road, but in that case you just walk in. There is no fence, or even defined boundary.
Every night people walk into the camp, after a long journey across Europe. No one registers them, or takes their details. No one really knows how many there are; 30-40 a day find their way to the associations and get 'welcome packs'- sleeping bag, blankets, food, water- but the monthly census regularly turns up surprising numbers, or vulnerable people who have arrived unnoticed. Many more must arrive and go again without any of us being any the wiser.
Volunteers, gangs, helpers, aid workers, journalists...they can all come and go at will. We all encourage people to register with someone (charity, association, project) but the ones that do are not really the ones we need to be concerned about.
Every night people walk into the camp, after a long journey across Europe. No one registers them, or takes their details. No one really knows how many there are; 30-40 a day find their way to the associations and get 'welcome packs'- sleeping bag, blankets, food, water- but the monthly census regularly turns up surprising numbers, or vulnerable people who have arrived unnoticed. Many more must arrive and go again without any of us being any the wiser.
Volunteers, gangs, helpers, aid workers, journalists...they can all come and go at will. We all encourage people to register with someone (charity, association, project) but the ones that do are not really the ones we need to be concerned about.
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