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Aliens probably long dead, say scientists

Sure, it IS unlikely. But in an almost-infinite universe it seems inconceivable that what has happened once hasn't happened at least a few times. The problem is not that there isn't life or even intelligent life, it's just that it could be so different and so spread out it might as well be invisible.
Or y'know maybe we're first cos life takes this long to get this far.
 
Sure, it IS unlikely. But in an almost-infinite universe it seems inconceivable that what has happened once hasn't happened at least a few times. The problem is not that there isn't life or even intelligent life, it's just that it could be so different and so spread out it might as well be invisible.
Or y'know maybe we're first cos life takes this long to get this far.
Or maybe it seems inconceivable that it even happened once.

That's the trouble with incredibly small chances and incredibly large timeframes. Difficult to get a feel for the odds.
 
Or maybe it seems inconceivable that it even happened once.
Far be it for me to question you on statistics kabbes, but surely because it happened here, it isn't at all inconceivable, it did happen. And if it happened once, given the right circumstances, it could conceivably happen again where the circumstances are also right.

Then there is infinite space. Surely it is inevitable the right circumstances will exist in multiple places .. so the same event is likely to occur ..

That's the trouble with incredibly small chances and incredibly large timeframes. Difficult to get a feel for the odds.
Many tiny steps have taken place in the evolution of life as we know it today ...
 
I think we don't really have a feel for how staggeringly unlikely multicellular life actually was in the first place. It seems, for example, that mitochondria, which are the part of our cells that provide us with all our energy, was originally an organism in its own right. It then somehow formed a symbiotic relationship with a predator. The symbiosis eventually became a single cell . All animal multicellular life is then based on that symbiosis. Without it, nothing would function. And that's just one of the many extraordinary developments that needed to happen in order for multicellular life to get off the drawing board. It's not just a matter of it taking billions of years to happen, it's also really unlikely even if you have billions of years. We just got lucky.

Not to say that it couldn't also happen somewhere else, but I'm not holding my breath. Single-celled organisms, yes, almost certainly. Complex intelligent life is a lot more unlikely. Total guesswork though, clearly.

I think your premise is flawed. It's like saying you won the lottery because you chose numbers based on counting the number of clover leaves on different areas of your lawn. It's extremely unlikely that anyone else will gain access to your garden to count your clover leaves to aid in choosing their lottery numbers, so it's really unlikely that anyone else is going to win it any time soon.

Obviously though it's inevitable that numerous people will win it every year, regardless of whether they have access to your garden. In fact, most of them probably choose their numbers without ever counting leaves.

You could argue that because life arose so quickly after the earth become a stable environment, this points to it being something that happens quite readily wherever the opportunity arises. Multi-cellular life has evolved numerous times, so that too is something that happens a lot. It's a bit like eyes - they have evolved independently lots of times, probably because they are so useful for surviving and doing stuff. From that you can conclude aliens are quite likely to have eyes.
 
Just to correct one error on firmer ground for me: there is not infinite space, nor are there infinite planets. Not in the part of the universe it is possible for us to interact with anyway (i.e. receive a signal from in a non-infinite time frame). Anything outside the interactable horizon is irrelevant from our perspective, because it is literally impossible for us to ever know about it one way or the other anyway.
 
Just to correct one error on firmer ground for me: there is not infinite space, nor are there infinite planets. Not in the part of the universe it is possible for us to interact with anyway (i.e. receive a signal from in a non-infinite time frame). Anything outside the interactable horizon is irrelevant from our perspective, because it is literally impossible for us to ever know about it one way or the other anyway.

The moon used to be outside the interactable horizon. Just because light travels faster than other things we know about doesn't mean much. What about wormholes and shit?
 
The moon used to be outside the interactable horizon. Just because light travels faster than other things we know about doesn't mean much. What about wormholes and shit?
What about wormholes and shit? Do you know something I don't? As far as I am aware, they are firmly in the realms of speculation. Meanwhile, there's pretty firm reasons to believe that you can't transmit information faster than the speed of light. It would fuck up causality, for a start.

(BTW: it's also not obvious that space is infinite even beyond that limit. My understanding is that it is finite, actually, and so are the number of stars and planets in it.)
 
What about wormholes and shit? Do you know something I don't? As far as I am aware, they are firmly in the realms of speculation.

I'm sure moon rockets were firmly in the realms of speculation at one point. Some people back then probably dismissed space travel as impossible and not worthy of consideration.

Meanwhile, there's pretty firm reasons to believe that you can't transmit information faster than the speed of light. It would fuck up causality, for a start.

Traveling more than 20 mph would be fatal, or at least that's what they thought at one time.
 
It could be argued that planets orbiting dwarf stars are more hospitable to life, and that as the universe ages it will contain lots more of these so life will become widespread as the universe ages.
It's my understanding that red dwarf stars have significantly greater magnetic fields, with respect to their size, than stars like our sun. This would lead to more energetic solar flares, which when combined with a much closer habitable zone, may impede the emergence of life. Although I think the magnetic activity does diminish over time (billions of years). So I agree that, especially given their tremendous longevity & abundance, smaller stars offer great hope for life to get a foothold, but it may be that in many cases it's simply too soon. It's always possible that life emerging around a star like ours is exceptionally rare, and that when you look at the big picture, over hundreds of billions of years, it's the little stars (once they've calmed down a bit) that will ultimately provide the best opportunities for life to emerge. We may not have heard from ET yet because we're the anomaly - one of the early pioneers - and most galactic life might appear in the far future.
 
In terms of the vastness of space, scientists can pretty much say anything, depending on the either the current thinking or their own slant as atm anything is possible. Be it "theres shit loads of em" or "we're alone"

Deadalien :hmm: ;) (another username of mine btw)
 
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Some random company think they may have found evidence of entities which are completly invisible to the naked eye. They make telescopes which can detect antimatter in distant galaxies, but found that they can also find odd little things in our own terrestrial surroundings. Could make the search of for ETs more interesting.

this is the company
Thunder Energies Corporation



This is their news archive bit, and that's the only entry that's whako.
news archive

Unless this some kind of marketing scam.
 
Oh god, no. No, no, no. Not unless you are talking infinite time, which we are not here.
I should have said 'enough time' to be completely accurate.

You're right about having a poor feel for certain probabilities. Our feel is so poor, in fact, that we may not realise just how inevitable complex life is given a certain set of parameters plus time.

Addy Pross has theorised a very different kind of stability in self-replicating chemistry - reversing the sign that exists for non-self-replicating chemistry. The system becomes more stable the more complex it becomes.
 
I should have said 'enough time' to be completely accurate.

You're right about having a poor feel for certain probabilities. Our feel is so poor, in fact, that we may not realise just how inevitable complex life is given a certain set of parameters plus time.
That's possible, but people talk as if it is inevitable given then time period in question. But given the extreme numbers involved, it could as well be overwhelmingly unlikely to have developed even once as to be inevitable to have happened (let alone multiple times)

(And when you now change it to "enough time" you are now just making it a tautology. The response to such a statement must be, "and?")
 
(And when you now change it to "enough time" you are now just making it a tautology. The response to such a statement must be, "and?")
And we know from the sample point of one that enough time has passed for it to occur in this universe - in second/third generation star systems with abundant heavier elements around. I don't see the basis for your ideas about unlikelihood. It's just as possible that life was rather slow to get going here given the conditions.
 
And we know from the sample point of one that enough time has passed for it to occur in this universe - in second/third generation star systems with abundant heavier elements around. I don't see the basis for your ideas about unlikelihood. It's just as possible that life was rather slow to get going here given the conditions.
A sample point of one means nothing other than the fact that it wasn't impossible, though. It could be that even given every planet in existence, it was still only a million-to-one shot that it would happen once, but that million-to-one shot just happened to come off. We just don't know. Or it could be that the odds are good on it happening multiple times. Or a thousand times. Again, we don't know. But I have noticed a trend towards people assuming the latter and discarding the former as wrong a priori. There is no basis for that assumption.
 
A sample point of one means nothing other than the fact that it wasn't impossible, though. It could be that even given every planet in existence, it was still only a million-to-one shot that it would happen once, but that million-to-one shot just happened to come off. We just don't know. Or it could be that the odds are good on it happening multiple times. Or a thousand times. Again, we don't know. But I have noticed a trend towards people assuming the latter and discarding the former as wrong a priori. There is no basis for that assumption.
It would be good to know how many times life started on Earth. It seems most scientists think there was a Last Universal Common Ancestor to all living things. But that doesn't mean there weren't others that lost out. I don't quite see how life can evolve just the once. Now that would be staggeringly unlikely. Rather, each stage will likely have had multiple competing candidates.
 
It would be good to know how many times life started on Earth. It seems most scientists think there was a Last Universal Common Ancestor to all living things. But that doesn't mean there weren't others that lost out. I don't quite see how life can evolve just the once. Now that would be staggeringly unlikely. Rather, each stage will likely have had multiple competing candidates.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting single cellular life is anywhere near so unlikely. But multi-cellular life is so many orders of magnitude more unlikely that it having happened lots of times is far less obviously inevitable as people make out
 
... on that score, actually, it's worth bearing in mind that for a whole billion years, life on earth just consisted of a kind of sludge. Not even complex bacteria or anything. Just really basic sludge. It was a really particular and peculiar set of coincidences that caused cells to start to come together.

And that's not even addressing the unlikeliness of any of this life getting intelligent in any way. It's not obvious that intelligence should be a dominant survival trait. The dinosaurs did perfectly well at the top of the tree for many orders of magnitude longer than we have been around without being notably intelligent. Strength is generally better unless your intelligence is really pretty good.

Anecdotally, the obvious response to pointing that it has happened once i.e. -- here -- is to point out that despite all our searching, we have found no evidence of it anywhere else. But both anecdotal approaches to the problem are significantly flawed, frankly.
 
Addy Pross's ideas are worth reading. He's controversial as his theory suggests a direction to evolution - a direction towards complexification rather than a truly random walk. What he calls kinetic stability - given the need to harness energy, complexification enhances replicating ability in self-replicating systems.
 
Addy Pross's ideas are worth reading. He's controversial as his theory suggests a direction to evolution - a direction towards complexification rather than a truly random walk. What he calls kinetic stability - given the need to harness energy, complexification enhances replicating ability in self-replicating systems.
Sounds like solipsism, frankly. It isn't obvious that current life is more complex than life from a million years ago, for example. It's just different. Meanwhile, there is still that billion years in which nothing happened to consider.
 
Sounds like solipsism, frankly. It isn't obvious that current life is more complex than life from a million years ago, for example. It's just different. Meanwhile, there is still that billion years in which nothing happened to consider.
He works up from principles found in the chemistry of self-replication, something that exists outside life forms as well.
 
'Life likely developed on many planets but then just disappeared due to runaway cooling or overheating'
Yet we continue to destroy the atmosphere of our own planet...
 
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