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Accused rapist Ched Evans to be released from prison

Can you see the problem here?

You think that the weight of evidence that Evans lied is "eventually" going to be quashed? Unlikely.
The Birmingham Six, on the other hand, well, so much checking and testing of the original evidence proved, for example, later additions to supposedly -contemporaneous statements; torture of the accused; manipulation of forensic evidence, etc that the likelihood was always there that such a weight would accumulate that the state would be forced to quash the "guilty" verdicts.
 
Reading some of the message boards and elsewhere from people querying Ched's conviction looks a lot like people are desperate for what Ched did not to be rape, almost like they're the ones on trial as well. It's a crying shame that he didn't hold his hands up and said he was wrong because a lot of people would have understood what rape is instead of now trying to justify that sleeping with drunk girls is ok.

If he'd admitted his guilt I'd reluctantly have him back at United (after all that's what the justice system is there for) but I'd rather him not come back. As it stands now I don't want him anywhere near my club for moral reasons and for the entirely selfish reason of the damage it will do to the club and the stick we'll get forever (from the 'family club' to the 'rapist club').

Some of the shit I've read on forums really is making me ashamed. When Sheff Weds fans started a message board thread vily attacking Charlie Webster it caused uproar with United fans. Now Charlie Webster (sexual assault campaigner and patron of Sheff Utd) says she can't continue her role at United if Ched comes back all of a sudden she's the enemy (obviously message boards don't represent everyone and there's plenty of sensible views on there as well).

Glad I'm not in the country right now and have to deal with all this shit (my mum's got my season ticket so she can deal with it) cos there's already been rape chants last Saturday from a minority at the back of the Kop, who wants to be associated with that?
 
"Attempts by the former professional footballer, Ched Evans, to have his rape conviction quashed are to be fast-tracked through the watchdog that examines possible miscarriages of justice.

The revelation that the Criminal Cases Review Commission is to make his case a priority is likely to see the ex-Sheffield United striker – who was released from prison on Friday after serving half of a five-year sentence for raping a 19-year-old woman – engulfed in fresh controversy.

It would normally take around 18 months for the commission, which has a staff of 90, to examine a claim of miscarriage of justice. Instead, the commission has taken the unusual decision to examine Evans’s case within weeks."

In full

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/oct/18/legal-watchdog-fast-tracks-ched-evans-rape-inquiry
 
There is something about this case that doesn't ring true with me, not least the fact that it is alleged that the victim had previously made rape allegations against 2 other prominent sportsman , one a cricketer and one a rugby league player!

Source please? Given that her name isn't even public the idea that she could easily be linked to previous false accusations seems pretty dubious at best. Sounds more like a nasty rumour being used to try and discredit her tbh...
 
Source please? Given that her name isn't even public the idea that she could easily be linked to previous false accusations seems pretty dubious at best. Sounds more like a nasty rumour being used to try and discredit her tbh...

Her name is all over the internet. As are these unsubstantiated claims about her; to date I've seen no evidence at all of the alleged previous allegations.
 
Now Charlie Webster (sexual assault campaigner and patron of Sheff Utd) says she can't continue her role at United if Ched comes back all of a sudden she's the enemy (obviously message boards don't represent everyone and there's plenty of sensible views on there as well).

Sad thing about this fall out from this case re: whether he gets to play football again is that it seems to be mostly down to weighing up the negative publicity/PR etc... If the story hadn't had much exposure of campaigning then I'd wager he'd already have a new contract with them.

Even Charile Webster has shot herself in the foot a bit - huffington post mentions she previously tweeted the following re: Mike Tyson "Just bumped into Mike Tyson in the hotel lobby as I was randomly talking about him! I chickened out on asking for a photo...damn." seemingly not having any issues with him also being a convicted rapist.

The media do seem to have double standards when it comes to sex offenders/rapists etc.. the John Peel plaque at the BBC too - if he was alive today he'd be getting grilled by Operation Yewtree detectives... but because he is still considered cool they've decided to gloss over his past. Some people seem to only have incentive to show some principles when they've been pressured into it...
 
Her name is all over the internet. As are these unsubstantiated claims about her; to date I've seen no evidence at all of the alleged previous allegations.

Her name might well be available online - it is a big leap to go from that to also somehow linking her to other false accusations thus I'd quite like to see the source.
 
Her name might well be available online - it is a big leap to go from that to also somehow linking her to other false accusations thus I'd quite like to see the source.

That's what I'm saying. The only source is unsubstantiated internet rumour.
 
That's what I'm saying. The only source is unsubstantiated internet rumour.

i'll take your word for that. i really don't think that i want to try to stomach delving into the kind of places where it's ok to 'name and shame' rape victims and make up shit about them to look for where that shit came from
 
I have real problems with the law that's being used in this case, and always have done since it was framed a decade or so ago.

Under UK law, anyone who gets blind drunk voluntarily is still held to be legally responsible for any actions they take while blind drunk, from driving a car to getting involved in a drunken fight to vandalism to murder etc. being blind drunk is not a defence against any charges.

Under this law though, voluntarily getting yourself drunk apparently does remove your legal right to consent to have sex with another consenting adult, and it's up to the police and then a jury to decide for you and your partner if you were too drunk to have given your consent legally if the next day you can't really remember what happened and somehow the police get involved (in this case according to Ched Evans site, the initial contact with the police related to the lost handbag and phone).

I've never understood how that was meant to work in practice, sure if someone's actually passed out then they obviously can't consent, but if you're both drunk, but both with it enough to say walk from a taxi into a hotel, hold a conversation etc. then how is anyone supposed to know that the woman that's saying they want to have sex with you isn't actually legally capable of making that decision, so you should both just ignore those drunken urges and maybe have a nice cup of tea instead.

How the fuck is that supposed to work? Should everyone on a night out be carrying breathalysers with them, and asking their potential partners to please just breath into this tube and sign this consent form in triplicate in front of a sober witness before they can consider having sex?

I know people who can spend hours dancing and getting up to all sorts of stuff, holding perfectly lucid conversations etc then in the morning they can't remember anything about the last few hours of the night, but at the time you'd not know that would be the case.

By this logic I've probably been raped myself half dozen or so times without realising it - I thought I was having drunk but consensual sex with someone I fancied, but apparently I must have been being raped if I can't entirely remember how I ended up in bed with them, or at what point I actually consented.

Here's the CPS guidance on this issue.

The question of capacity to consent is particularly relevant when a complainant is intoxicated by alcohol or affected by drugs.

In R v Bree [2007] EWCA 256, the Court of Appeal explored the issue of capacity and consent, stating that, if, through drink, or for any other reason, a complainant had temporarily lost her capacity to choose whether to have sexual intercourse, she was not consenting, and subject to the defendant's state of mind, if intercourse took place, that would be rape. However, where a complainant had voluntarily consumed substantial quantities of alcohol, but nevertheless remained capable of choosing whether to have intercourse, and agreed to do so, that would not be rape. Further, they identified that capacity to consent may evaporate well before a complainant becomes unconscious. Whether this is so or not, however, depends on the facts of the case.

In cases similar to Bree, prosecutors should carefully consider whether the complainant has the capacity to consent, and ensure that the instructed advocate presents the Crown's case on this basis and, if necessary, reminds the trial judge of the need to assist the jury with the meaning of capacity.

Prosecutors and investigators should consider whether supporting evidence is available to demonstrate that the complainant was so intoxicated that he/she had lost their capacity to consent. For example, evidence from friends, taxi drivers and forensic physicians describing the complainant's intoxicated state may support the prosecution case. In addition, it may be possible to obtain expert evidence in respect of the effects of alcohol/drugs and the effects if they are taken together. Consideration should be given to obtaining an expert's back calculation or the opinion of an expert in human pharmacology in relation to the complainant's level of alcohol/ drugs at the time of the incident.

So it's essentially all down to the judgement of the police, cps, judge and jury as to whether someone was just drunk, but still able to consent, or had crossed the line into being too drunk to consent. They could be literally begging you for sex, but the police, CPS could decide that no they were actually too pissed, so you've raped them.

It's an utterly shit law drafted by puritanical politicians who've always hated the drunken debauchery that many of us engage in / have engaged in most weekends at different stages in our lives, that goes on every weekend in most city centres across the country, a good proportion of which would involve people who would both be classed by this law as being too drunk to consent to sex, but yet they do the same thing week after week because actually that's their choice of how they want to live their lives at that point in their lives.

So, I hope Ched Evans does appeal this, and I hope that it ends up with the law being changed or significantly clarified to one that actually makes sense and doesn't remove the rights of drunk people to have consensual sex without worrying that any random police involvement afterwards could result in one of them being charged with rape just because you were both drunk.

Not that he's not a sleazy fuck for what he did, but IMO nobody should be getting imprisoned for rape when the woman involved has actually consented just because the police later decide that in their opinion she must have been too drunk to give informed consent (assuming the woman was capable of walking, talking etc rather then being passed out or virtually passed out).
 
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I agree with Heseltine from Any Questions, he has served his sentence so he should be able to work again, however footballers are role models for kids, and if I were a football manager I would not hire him!
 
being blind drunk is not a defence against any charges
You answered your question yourself.

If you're in any doubt over whether someone is too drunk to consent, then don't. It's really not a grey area. As someone who's shagged people numerous times when pissed, I can tell you there was a fucking big difference on the two occasions I was raped.
 
I've just seen the CCTV footage of the couple entering the hotel - from the Ched Evans website - and the woman would appear to be able to walk perfectly reasonably. She is seen carrying a large pizza box one-handed in very high heels.

This doesn't mean she wasn't raped, but the idea that she was so drunk that was incapable of giving consent is difficult to sustain without evidence of her taking further drinks after this footage.
 
You answered your question yourself.

If you're in any doubt over whether someone is too drunk to consent, then don't. It's really not a grey area. As someone who's shagged people numerous times when pissed, I can tell you there was a fucking big difference on the two occasions I was raped.
but in this case there's no suggestion or evidence that she didn't consent, just that it was later decided that she legally wasn't capable of consenting through being too drunk.

as I understand it anyway.
 
and what I was saying about being drunk not being a defence against any other legal charges is that this is the only situation legally where the person being drunk removes their presumed legal responsibility for their actions / decisions / actually removes their legal ability to decide what they do and do not want to do with their own body at that point in time.
 
I was under the impression that the fact she was unconscious at the time was somehow significant
where's the evidence of that?

I did a bit of reading around before making that post, and haven't found anything to indicate that she was passed out when it happened.
 
but in this case there's no suggestion or evidence that she didn't consent, just that it was later decided that she legally wasn't capable of consenting through being too drunk.

as I understand it anyway.
Are you saying that she was lying? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying.
 
and what I was saying about being drunk not being a defence against any other legal charges is that this is the only situation legally where the person being drunk removes their presumed legal responsibility for their actions / decisions / actually removes their legal ability to decide what they do and do not want to do with their own body at that point in time.

What are you talking about?
being drunk not being a defence against any other legal charges

You are aware that being raped is not actually a criminal offence, right?

And given that none of us are party to exactly what went on in the court or the jury room, I'd be wary as fuck about accepting anything from the Ched Evans website at face value. Is that where the mysterious allegations about the victim supposedly making previous "false accusations" came from?
 
Are you saying that she was lying? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying.
no, I'm saying that from what I've read she said she couldn't really remember what happened, and all the charges were based on the statements made voluntarily by the 2 footballers who were then prosecuted due to the police deciding that the woman was too drunk to have legally consented.

are you saying that she made a clear statement that she didn't consent? If so, then that obviously changes the situation.
 
Are you saying that she was lying? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying.
Mr Philpotts said: "The prosecution say that she did not truly consent to that activity.

"She was in no fit state to consent.

"And we say that neither man reasonably believed she was consenting."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-east-wales-17677969

Even the prosecution didn't say that she didn't consent, their case was that she was in no fit state to consent.
 
fuck knows, nothing to do with me so don't lump that one on me.

Well, you certainly appear to be treating info from that site uncritically as if it is of some value in reaching any sort of judgement on either this particular case or the wider legal position.

The best thing that can be said of you is that you're extremely naive and being taken for a mug - please don't take the rest of us for mugs, coz it's not going to work.
 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-east-wales-17677969

Even the prosecution didn't say that she didn't consent, their case was that she was in no fit state to consent.
I really don't know what you're arguing here. If she was in no fit state to consent and neither man could have reasonably believed she consented, then she didn't consent.

If you're in any doubt whether a woman is consenting, don't fuck her. It's not that difficult. Really.
 
Well, you certainly appear to be treating info from that site uncritically as if it is of some value in reaching any sort of judgement on either this particular case or the wider legal position.

The best thing that can be said of you is that you're extremely naive and being taken for a mug - please don't take the rest of us for mugs, coz it's not going to work.
I've checked some of his site out, I've also checked out the court reports linked from this thread, and multiple other reports - and I checked the other reports first, then verified the points made on his site elsewhere.

But forget this specific case if you want, what do you actually think of the law as it's framed, and the CPS guidance quoted above. Do you support a law that could result in people being sent down for rape in situations where the other person has actually consented, but is later judged to not have been capable of consenting, and has no real memory of the situation themselves?
 
I agree with Heseltine from Any Questions, he has served his sentence so he should be able to work again, however footballers are role models for kids, and if I were a football manager I would not hire him!

I wonder, if he were a teacher, how many parents would be happy for him to teach their kids. I think he would rightly kiss his teaching career goodbye. Should be the same for a footballer.
 
I really don't know what you're arguing here. If she was in no fit state to consent and neither man could have reasonably believed she consented, then she didn't consent.

If you're in any doubt whether a woman is consenting, don't fuck her. It's not that difficult. Really.
10 minutes earlier she's seen on the cctv linked to walking into the hotel, have a look, does she seem in such a state that you'd automatically say that she should be judged as being in no fit state to consent to sex?

There doesn't seem to have been any doubt in the footballers minds that she was clearly consenting, and a willing partner in what was going on, the prosecution case was based on her being too drunk to have legally given her consent (as far as I can tell, if anyone has links that say otherwise please post them up).
 
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