Accused rapist Ched Evans to be released from prison

[ViolentPanda]

This thread has reminded me of something that happened years ago. I was very drunk after an evening out with friends and a friend of a friend took me back to my flat. I remember being a bit flirty with him (because I did quite fancy him) but I really don't remember anything from the point we got home. When I woke up, my first thought was 'oh god, I bet L and I have had sex and I really didn't want to' and I was so, so relieved to find that he hadn't 'taken advantage' of me. He had instead put me to bed, fully clothed and gone home.

How fucked up is that? To be so grateful that my friend didn't rape me? I'm fairly most men wouldn't, but my expectation was that he would. I think this thread demonstrates the importance of consent in spades. There are a lot of men who don't seem to understand that asking a drunk woman for overt consent is absolutely crucial. I really don't see why that's so difficult. Unless of course you want to fuck her whether she really wants to or not.

From my own perspective, I can't understand (or stomach) why anyone would want to have sex with a semi-or unconscious woman. Back when I was 21 I took a friend (a woman I'd known since I was 15) to a party. When I took her home (to her place), very drunk, at about 3.30AM, she came on to me very strongly, and got quite tearful when I rebuffed her. I ended up spending a couple of hours sitting next to her on her sofa, stroking her hair while she dozed off some of the Captain Morgan she'd drunk, then fell asleep. In the morning (well, mid-morning!) she actually expressed much the same gratitude you felt, which absolutely horrified me - I'd never actually considered prior to that, that some blokes might take advantage of a woman who was too drunk to say no, and I wasn't exactly one of G-d's innocents.
It really jarred me, and made me realise that rape isn't just the stranger in the alley or dark space, or the friend or family member in your own home, it's about opportunism and what people think they can get away with too, and what she (and so many other women) appeared to have internalised about what constituted rape too - that it wasn't some bloke taking advantage when you're both drunk, or emotionally-manipulating you into sex, but was only someone violently forcing themselves on you, and leaving bruises to prove it.

 

[toggle]

That's the thing: they have abdicated all responsibility for their actions to the woman.

and they genuinely believe that not only is that acceptable, but that all men either do act like that, or want to.

 

[trashpony]

and they genuinely believe that not only is that acceptable, but that all men either do act like that, or want to.

There's been quite a bit of that on this thread

 

[toggle]

There's been quite a bit of that on this thread

i should probably spell this out, not cause you need to be told, but cause this isn't said enough.

it is often said that feminists think all men are rapists. we don't. but there is one group of people who think all men are rapists. and that's rapists. men who rape think that is a normal way to behave. they think that the only men who don'[t are those who are too scared to act like normal men. hence the abuse thrown from the MRA camps at male feminists.

 

[Cribynkle]

My cousin once woke up a mutual schoolfriend's house after a night out to find friend of friend sexually assaulting her. I'd previously slept in a room with the same bloke after a drunken night out and have no idea whether he did anything to me. My school friend is still mates with this bloke and doesn't understand why we won't have anything to do with them anymore and why we wouldn't go to her wedding because he was going to be there.

 

[killer b]

My school friend is still mates with this bloke and doesn't understand why we won't have anything to do with them anymore and why we wouldn't go to her wedding because he was going to be there.

This is fairly standard, if depressing. All in the name of 'not wanting to take sides', no doubt.

 

[trashpony]

I wonder if the MRA supporters are pro this kind of thing? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-echochambers-29716923

 

[Cribynkle]

This is fairly standard, if depressing. All in the name of 'not wanting to take sides', no doubt.

Yup, but by not taking sides they actually took his side and it's ruined our friendship. It's just so depressing that this person who I always thought was so sound (and who works in social care) could be so accepting of his behaviour

 

[killer b]

One of the things that's been making me cross about this thread: in common with many people, a large proportion of my female friends have been raped or seriously sexually assaulted, all of them have been groped, harassed and abused because they're women. None of them - not one - has seen any kind of justice, and only one of them even went to the police. I know this to be completely normal.

And yet, here we are after 30 pages, and some dickheads' priority is still protecting the men - suggesting that because in some outlandish circumstance that exists only in their mind someone might be wrongfully convicted for rape, then a law that could actually see some women see some justice should be scrapped. Fuck that. You need to look at your priorities.

 

[killer b]

Yup, but by not taking sides they actually took his side and it's ruined our friendship. It's just so depressing that this person who I always thought was so sound (and who works in social care) could be so accepting of his behaviour

yes, absolutely, I had something similar happen to me (the guy in question actually tried to add me on facebook the other week, as if the intervening 15 years might have made me forget that time he sexually assaulted my girlfriend). there's no fence with this stuff. But that's how it goes.

 

[toggle]

yes, absolutely, I had something similar happen to me (the guy in question actually tried to add me on facebook the other week, as if the intervening 15 years might have made me forget that time he sexually assaulted my girlfriend). there's no fence with this stuff. But that's how it goes.

forget what? he won't believe there is any problem, because he won't believe he did anything wrong.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I wonder if the MRA supporters are pro this kind of thing? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-echochambers-29716923

One positive thing in this sea of shit, stories such as this where action is taken are becoming a tad more common. Perhaps things are moving, like a glacier, but moving all the same.

 

[trashpony]

One positive thing in this sea of shit, stories such as this where action is taken are becoming a tad more common. Perhaps things are moving, like a glacier, but moving all the same.

I bloody hope so because in the 30 odd years I've called myself a feminist, it feels like we've taken 3 steps forwards and 4 back

 

[equationgirl]

I bloody hope so because in the 30 odd years I've called myself a feminist, it feels like we've taken 3 steps forwards and 4 back

It is rather depressing sometimes, isn't it

 

[likesfish]

Staggering into a hotel room with some girl i managed to pick up in ayia napa she practcally paased out so that was the end of the night

Yes i was pissed off but even a 20 year old squaddie could figure out a girl whose asleep isnt gagging for sex
Though appramtly its not a universal thing

 

[equationgirl]

Looks like some of the anti-rape campaigns have a long way to go...

From: http://www.wecanstopit.co.uk/

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

^^^
That's not real is it?

 

[Orang Utan]

One of the things that's been making me cross about this thread: in common with many people, a large proportion of my female friends have been raped or seriously sexually assaulted, all of them have been groped, harassed and abused because they're women. None of them - not one - has seen any kind of justice, and only one of them even went to the police. I know this to be completely normal.

And yet, here we are after 30 pages, and some dickheads' priority is still protecting the men - suggesting that because in some outlandish circumstance that exists only in their mind someone might be wrongfully convicted for rape, then a law that could actually see some women see some justice should be scrapped. Fuck that. You need to look at your priorities.

What's even more depressing is that attitudes don't seem to be changing. In fact I think they've got worse. Recently, I was talking to some 13-14 year old girls about a horrific incident involving sexual exploitation of another girl by some boys, and was shocked to hear them defend the boys and criticise the girl. I was shocked. Why is it getting worse?

 

[toggle]

What's even more depressing is that attitudes don't seem to be changing. In fact I think they've got worse. Recently, I was talking to some 13-14 year old girls about a horrific incident involving sexual exploitation of another girl by some boys, and was shocked to hear them defend the boys and criticise the girl. I was shocked. Why is it getting worse?

because even if they haven't been indoctrinated with the idea that abuse is the victim's fault, then none of them want to stick a 'me next' label on themselves

 

[killer b]

Is it getting worse? That's a grim story and I've heard similar, but I'd expect those sorts of views have always been there, if not perhaps discussed as much. Also, kids are fucking idiots who don't know shit.

 

[Orang Utan]

Is it getting worse? That's a grim story and I've heard similar, but I'd expect those sorts of views have always been there, if not perhaps discussed as much. Also, kids are fucking idiots who don't know shit.

I don't remember thinking that as a kid. But I wasn't exposed to sex as much as kids are these days.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

It's hard to say without pretty wide experience. I didn't hear about that sort of thing as a kid but then I'd be shocked if it was common now in the small town rural grammar school I went to.

 

[spanglechick]

a lot of the discussion here is built on a fundamental acceptance that promiscuity in women and girls is ok. In my experience, young people are overwhelmingly unwilling to accept that.

 

[seventh bullet]

Also, kids are fucking idiots who don't know shit.

Yeah, I didn't know what rape really was as a kid. It wasn't until I was older (and angrier) that I understood what had happened to me.

 

[killer b]

IME kids tend to be quite reactionary. Takes growing up a bit to put a lot of things into context.

 

[Athos]

a lot of the discussion here is built on a fundamental acceptance that promiscuity in women and girls is ok. In my experience, young people are overwhelmingly unwilling to accept that.

I think 'promiscuity' is an interesting word. It means indiscriminateness. I wonder whether that contributes to the idea that women who have a number of partners are willing to sleep with anyone i.e. that it's not really rape if she's a slag, 'cos she's bound to be up for it, no matter if she's asleep/drunk/objecting. And you don't really hear of men being described as promiscuous. I think there must be a better, less morally-loaded, word for women who choose to enjoy sex with a number of different men.

 

[weepiper]

I think there must be a better, less morally-loaded, word for women who choose to enjoy sex with a number of different men.

There isn't. Women aren't allowed to choose to enjoy sex with a number of different men. It's just not something 'society' recognises as possible without moral judgement.

 

[Athos]

There isn't. Women aren't allowed to choose to enjoy sex with a number of different men. It's just not something 'society' recognises as possible without moral judgement.

It's a chicken and egg, I suppose; does language shape our perceptions, or is it merely a reflection of them, or a bit of both? Perhaps if enough people begin to speak positively about female sexuality, then there might be a gradual shift, which could gather some momentum.

 

[toggle]

It's a chicken and egg, I suppose; does language shape our perceptions, or is it merely a reflection of them, or a bit of both? Perhaps if enough people begin to speak positively about female sexuality, then there might be a gradual shift, which could gather some momentum.

the problem we have now is that there is an acceptance of female sexuality that is male controlled, but far less acceptance if the woman herself is in control. i mentioned in the gamergate thread, that the mere idea that a game designer had a relationship with someone who might have been able to help her career was enough to spark off all this shit, wow a woman had sex, hold the front page. but when major developers hired escorts to work company parties, that wasnt seen as problematic.

 

[equationgirl]

^^^
That's not real is it?

It is - it's from the latest campaign being run by Police Scotland. Whilst all the different pictures say sodding obvious things, it's also a little scary that these things still need saying. Here's a few more:

They're also addressing male rape, which I think it quite forward thinking for a campaign like this.