A thank you to Brexiteers.

[bemused]

Firstly they don’t have to raise taxes to do this secondly if they did they can tax the rich , tax large companies and lastly surveys have shown that people would pay more tax for better health .

Maybe someone will fix it someday, none of the governments in my living memory has come close. I hope so, it's terrifying to stare down the barrel of end of life care worrying if you'll tank your life savings in the process.

 

[andysays]

But you agree that Brexit is unlikely to bring any improvements for workers?

Any improvements for workers will be the result of actions that workers take themselves.

But Brexit changes the context and the fact that the UK government can't so easily import pre-trained health workers from (especially poorer) EU countries will potentially mean they will have to improve training and pay for new and existing workers, especially if health workers campaign effectively around those issues.

Or, if we're asking each other loaded questions, do you think it's a healthy situation for the British health service to be reliant on lower paid foreign trained workers, either for workers in Britain or the health services in the countries whose trained workers the UK effectively poaches?

 

[editor]

Any improvements for workers will be the result of actions that workers take themselves.

But Brexit changes the context and the fact that the UK government can't so easily import pre-trained health workers from (especially poorer) EU countries will potentially mean they will have to improve training and pay for new and existing workers, especially if health workers campaign effectively around those issues.

Or, if we're asking each other loaded questions, do you think it's a healthy situation for the British health service to be reliant on lower paid foreign trained workers, either for workers in Britain or the health services in the countries whose trained workers the UK effectively poaches?

I'm all for massive taxation of the rich to provide well paid work for those who want it, totally free NHS services, social housing for all and free access to Europe for all without all the bullshit Brexit has brought in its wake. But saying what I'd like ain't going to make it happen.

And I don't see Brexit as forwarding any of those aims at all, and, as you all know, on a personal level it's already fucked me over for work.

 

[JimW]

Reality typically is inevitable.

If you look at how right economic liberals have shifted the post-war political ground often flying full in the face of external economic realities you should realise this is bollocks.

 

[bemused]

And I don't see Brexit as forwarding any of those aims at all, and, as you all know, on a personal level it's already fucked me over for work.

It's never been clear to me, apart from immigration, how the EU prevented the UK from proceeding any domestic policy agenda. I'm ambivalent about Brexit but the central thesis that the EU stopped the UK from being awesome has never held much water with me.

 

[bemused]

But Brexit changes the context and the fact that the UK government can't so easily import pre-trained health workers from (especially poorer) EU countries will potentially mean they will have to improve training and pay for new and existing workers, especially if health workers campaign effectively around those issues.

I think you grossly underestimate any governments preference for quick solutions. It's easy for them to create a visa and recruitment scheme for foreign health care workers. I'd say the majority of nurses I came across in the two months I spent in hospital last year were from outside the EU; Africa and the Philippines.

 

[andysays]

I think you grossly underestimate any governments preference for quick solutions. It's easy for them to create a visa and recruitment scheme for foreign health care workers. I'd say the majority of nurses I came across in the two months I spent in hospital last year were from outside the EU; Africa and the Philippines.

And that is why I'm not suggesting and have never suggested that Brexit is any sort of substitute for workers taking collective action.

 

[ska invita]

..the light is fading and I am missing home terribly. Parsons left to fetch firewood last week and hasn't been seen again since. We fear the worst, but daren't search for him in case the same fate, whatever it was, befalls us. So we are stuck. To pass the time, Smedley and I have begun again to debate the pros and cons of Brexit. After 6 years we seem not to grow tired of this topic. I am thankful for it. But surely we cannot continue in this way for much longer. I fear for my sanity....

 

[editor]

And that is why I'm not suggesting and have never suggested that Brexit is any sort of substitute for workers taking collective action.

Do you think Brexit has increased or decreased the likelihood of workers taking collective action, or made absolutely zero difference?

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

And I don't see Brexit as forwarding any of those aims at all, and, as you all know, on a personal level it's already fucked me over for work.

Wasn't your band supposed to be doing a big tour of the US and Canada this year? If so, how has Brexit 'fucked you over'?

 

[editor]

Wasn't your band supposed to be doing a big tour of the US and Canada this year? If so, how has Brexit 'fucked you over'?

Sorry, what has that got to with the band having absolutely zero European dates booked for any point in the future?
A lot of our work was in Europe and Brexit has absolutely fucked us over as I've explained to you multiple times. I'm not interested in repeating myself so I'll say it for the last time: shitty fucking Brexit has screwed over bands, musicians and the live industries. And that's not my opinion, it's well documented fact.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Do you think Brexit has increased or decreased the likelihood of workers taking collective action, or made absolutely zero difference?

Collective action, traditionally, has closely tracked wider dominant economic conditions. For example, where there is an inexhaustible pool of reserve labour confidence is low, people are generally accepting of lower pay/worsened conditions because they aren't stupid and disputes |(and trade union membership levels) tend to decrease. When the opposite conditions apply the opposite effect often materialises.

But, and I think this is important, I've never heard of a dispute or any collective action arising or not as a result of worker deliberation about our membership of the EU. Stripping industrial disputes of their wider context - what sector is it, is there a union, is it fit for purpose, what is the membership density, what is the issue, historic labour/management relations, how and where is bargaining done etc - isn't going to generate any serious discussion.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Sorry, what has that got to with the band having absolutely zero European dates booked for any point in the future?
A lot of our work was in Europe and Brexit has absolutely fucked us over as I've explained to you multiple times. I'm not interested in repeating myself so I'll say it for the last time: shitty fucking Brexit has screwed over bands, musicians and the live industries. And that's not my opinion, it's well documented fact.

Yeah we know, but your band had dates lined up for the UK, US and Canada and none lined up for Europe at all. I was just enquiring how Brexit had absolutely fucked you over for work, seeing as you had none planned in Europe for this year anyway. Also if you can tour the US & Canada, why not Europe, it's currently a very similar process to do so?

 

[gosub]

Any improvements for workers will be the result of actions that workers take themselves.

But Brexit changes the context and the fact that the UK government can't so easily import pre-trained health workers from (especially poorer) EU countries will potentially mean they will have to improve training and pay for new and existing workers, especially if health workers campaign effectively around those issues.

Or, if we're asking each other loaded questions, do you think it's a healthy situation for the British health service to be reliant on lower paid foreign trained workers, either for workers in Britain or the health services in the countries whose trained workers the UK effectively poaches?

I'm not sure if you have ever been outside a Manilla employment agency. Exporting healthworkers is a significant part of their economy.
That said Phillipines is one of the countries currently experiencing shortages of medical oxygen, I hope BOC goes out of their way to help

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I'm not sure if you have ever been outside a Manilla employment agency.

I don't think anyone who hasn't should be allowed to post further on this thread tbh.

 

[editor]

Yeah we know, but your band had dates lined up for the UK, US and Canada and none lined up for Europe at all. I was just enquiring how Brexit had absolutely fucked you over for work, seeing as you had none planned in Europe for this year anyway. Also if you can tour the US & Canada, why not Europe, it's currently a very similar process to do so?

You really are clueless on this topic and I've really no idea why you keep on showing your ignorance.

The costs of a band touring the US are exponentially higher than playing Europe for a whole host of reasons.

And that's what only a tiny percentage of UK bands who play Europe ever make it to the US.

It is not a similar process. In fact no one even knows what the current process is for bands to tour Europe because Brexit is such a fucking mess. It used to be incredibly straightforward and could be sorted with minimum expense. But this has already been pointed out to you.

As an aside, I was looking to book some European bands for my club nights in Brixton but neither they or me have any idea if is logistically possible right now. It's a total clusterfuck.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

You really are clueless on this topic and I've really no idea why you keep on showing your ignorance.

The costs of a band touring the US are exponentially higher than playing Europe for a whole host of reasons.

And that's what only a tiny percentage of UK bands who play Europe ever make it to the US.

It is not a similar process. In fact no one even knows what the current process is for bands to tour Europe because Brexit is such a fucking mess. It used to be incredibly straightforward and could be sorted with minimum expense. But this has already been pointed out to you.

As an aside, I was looking to book some European bands for my club nights in Brixton but neither they or me have any idea if is logistically possible right now. It's a total clusterfuck.

And things have changed.

Ignorant clueless person who has already sent many professional artists to the EU since January can offer you a clue, you seem determined not to listen and instead lament what is no longer possible. That's not going to help you get touring again though.

A glimpse of what a clueless could enlighten you with; your band, travelling by train as it does, with guitars and drumsticks as luggage doesn't need a carnet for travel in and around the EU...

 

[editor]

And things have changed.

Ignorant clueless person who has already sent many professional artists to the EU since January can offer you a clue, you seem determined not to listen and instead lament what is no longer possible. That's not going to help you get touring again though.

A glimpse of what a clueless could enlighten you with; your band, travelling by train as it does, with guitars and drumsticks as luggage doesn't need a carnet for travel in and around the EU...

Anyone who claims that touring the US "is a very similar process to touring Europe" really doesn't know anything abut the economics and logistics of playing America.

Exactly which ' professional artists' artists have you sent to the EU since January? Could you name some please because I don't know a single musician or band from my large circle of friends who has played a single date.

And as for the carnet, there's this:

Whether or not a deal is done before 31st December 2020, ATA carnets should be available for temporary exports. They cover many items people take on business trips but can not be used for merchandise you wish to sell.

The probability is that import duty and VAT will need to be paid on any merchandising items, in advance of travelling. An additional up front cost and one which may eat into profits.

Merchandising In The EU After Brexit | Dynamic Dox

Performers and other professions can rely on selling merchandise, from T-shirts, to photocards, part of keeping our creative culture visible in the EU.

www.ata-carnet.uk

 

[editor]

And here's how 'easy' it is:

Guidance for Musicians Working in the EU in post-Brexit

What every musician and band needs to know when working in Europe.

musiciansunion.org.uk

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Anyone who claims that touring the US "is a very similar process to touring Europe" really doesn't know anything abut the economics and logistics of playing America.

Exactly which ' professional artists' artists have you sent to the EU since January? Could you name some please because I don't know a single musician or band from my large circle of friends who has played a single date.

And as for the carnet, there's this:

Merchandising In The EU After Brexit | Dynamic Dox

Performers and other professions can rely on selling merchandise, from T-shirts, to photocards, part of keeping our creative culture visible in the EU.

www.ata-carnet.uk

Not all artists are musicians. A shocker I know.

I will not name my customers on here, suffice to say that those who are musicians have not played anywhere due to Covid and no other reason.

You do not need an ATA carnet for Europe, they cost around £450 each. You can use Duplicate List which is free, would have thought the Musicians' Union would be aware of this, seems not though.

The process of touring Europe is now very similar to that of touring the US. You can no longer just wander in, play some gigs, flog some tat and piss off home without a thought to paying taxes in your host country, you need visas to enter and you need to make sure you don't use the host country's facilities without contributing towards them. Of course America is easier in that respect as you only need one visa for the whole country, whereas currently you would need one for each European country you visit

I would have thought that you may take advantage of someone on your boards who actually does this shit day in, day out, but it seems in your world I know 'nothing' about this.

 

[editor]

Not all artists are musicians. A shocker I know.

I will not name my customers on here, suffice to say that those who are musicians have not played anywhere due to Covid and no other reason.

You do not need an ATA carnet for Europe, they cost around £450 each. You can use Duplicate List which is free, would have thought the Musicians' Union would be aware of this, seems not though.

The process of touring Europe is now very similar to that of touring the US. You can no longer just wander in, play some gig, flog some tat and piss off home without a thought to paying taxes in your host country, you need visas to enter and you need to make sure you don't use the host country's facilities without contributing towards them. Of course America is easier in that respect as you only need one visa for the whole country, whereas currently you would need one for each European country you visit

I would have thought that you may take advantage of someone on your boards who actually does this shit day in, day out, but it seems in your world I know 'nothing' about this.

If you don't name some of the artists/bands, then there's absolutely way of finding out if they have the slightest relevance to bands at my level.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

If you don't name some of the artists/bands, then there's absolutely way of finding out if they have the slightest relevance to bands at my level.

ffs, most of my customers who identify as artists are not musicians, I did just say that. And I am certainly not going to publicly name them here, will PM you if you're that bothered. They do however need special visas now to visit the EU, unless they use a work-around that their clever travel agent has set up for them.

 

[andysays]

I'm not sure if you have ever been outside a Manilla employment agency. Exporting healthworkers is a significant part of their economy.
That said Phillipines is one of the countries currently experiencing shortages of medical oxygen, I hope BOC goes out of their way to help

I've never been outside a Manilla employment agency, but I am certainly aware that the Philippines has a long tradition of exporting health and other workers - my MiL came to London from the Philippines in the late 60s as a trained midwife and spent much of her working life in the NHS, although not as a midwife.

But whilst I'm obviously glad on a personal level that she came, it's still the case that employers in the UK and other rich western countries have historically exploited and continue to exploit poorer countries which train their young people and then see that investment disappear overseas.

 

[Pickman's model]

Anyone who claims that touring the US "is a very similar process to touring Europe" really doesn't know anything abut the economics and logistics of playing America.

Exactly which ' professional artists' artists have you sent to the EU since January? Could you name some please because I don't know a single musician or band from my large circle of friends who has played a single date.

And as for the carnet, there's this:

Merchandising In The EU After Brexit | Dynamic Dox

Performers and other professions can rely on selling merchandise, from T-shirts, to photocards, part of keeping our creative culture visible in the EU.

www.ata-carnet.uk

On the merch front it might be a good idea to get it made in Europe to avoid vat and customs charges, then pick it up while you're out there. When you're able to go, like.

 

[prunus]

I've never been outside a Manilla employment agency, <snip>

Not in any way a useful addition to the debate, but I just wanted to put my hand up and say I’ve never not been outside a Manilla employment agency in all my born days.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Not in any way a useful addition to the debate, but I just wanted to put my hand up and say I’ve never not been outside a Manila employment agency in all my born days.

You and andysays are just slackers. But to be honest I have been and it weren't nothing to get excited about,

 

[Pickman's model]

You and andysays are just slackers. But to be honest I have been and it weren't nothing to get excited about,

I too have never been in a mea

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I too have never been in a mea

Nae bother, what we need to know is have you ever been outside one? (no specifics on how far away actually applies here, standards on the boards are not what they once were but I would care to suggest a couple of hundred metres, as opposed to 8000 miles or so...)

 

[gosub]

But whilst I'm obviously glad on a personal level that she came, it's still the case that employers in the UK and other rich western countries have historically exploited and continue to exploit poorer countries which train their young people and then see that investment disappear overseas.

That investment sees remittances contributing 10% of GDP.

 

[Supine]