A particularly tough question about Loughborough Junction railway station history

[Puddy_Tat]

I've drawn something of a blank on this. The history of the London Chatham & Dover Railway (Adrian Gray) is silent on the subject of a station building as part of the 1871/2 construction of the Cambria curve. Alan A Jackson's 'London's Local Railways' has a section on the Crystal Palace high level line and also does not mention anything about Loughborough Junction.

At the risk of repetition, the Cambria Curve was mainly a means of joining the (then nominally independent) Crystal Palace & S London Junction Railway (who were responsible for the now closed Crystal Palace high level line) to the LCDR's line to the City. The LCDR ended up taking over the CPSLJR.

If the (now demolished) building at Crystal Palace was anything to go by, the CPSLJR did go in for substantial buildings.

The building style being similar to Denmark Hill may simply reflect a shared architect, or the fashion of the time. The Kent Rail website does not yet have a page on Loughborough Junction, but does have a page on Denmark Hill which mentions the architect Charles Henry Driver.

The 1899 proposals in the London Gazette is an interesting find, but this represents a later stage - after the rival South Eastern and London, Chatham & Dover railways entered in to a joint managing committee. I will have to do some digging to see if I can find anything similar from the late 1860s / early 70s (the connection between the Crystal Palace line and the LCDR took some time to finalise)

 

[toggle]

hence, i reckon that i'd try and find a reference to a hall being built there in the online newspapers before i did anyhting elswe. fwiw, i got more stuff from searching for variations on Coldharbour than Loughborough.

but if it's a public hall, there should be loads of references to meetings being held there. late 19th century newspapers liked nothing better than to publish transcripts of meetings. and would often just publish verbatum what was sent to them, saved them having to find something to write about to fill space. and people at that time formed committees to manage their committees. which is why the public halls were needed.

I have tried e-mailing archive departments before. I am afraid it is always a waste of time. They always say you will have to go in person to search. The LCD company records are in the National Archives at Kew. You can do an online search to find them but you can't actually see the documents.

your only real options are going there, or paying a researcher. or if ti's just a handful of documents that you know you need, have them hotocopied/photographed and sent to you.

but you can do a lot as a day or 2, digi camera. just photo everything and look properly at home. my 4 days in an archive earlier this year has left me with over 8k photos from that trip. and i could probably have got more if i'd not kept getting distracted and started reading the diaries.

and look for local histories. cause they are often written by people with connections in a community, who will have read bits of local papers and visited the archives. and what you want to know might be hidden in a footnote to someone's brixton history book. a little aside on the history of the building while discussing a meeting held there. biogs of people who lived/worked in the area can be good for this as well.

i know it sounds like a longshot, but if you read enough of this stuff, stranger things have happened.

 

[thatguyhex]

It appears that caution should be had; there was a Loughborough Hall extant as early as 1858 which I imagine to be an earlier building.

Aha! The Builder, April 17, 1880:

"The Loughborough Hall, recently opened, and the Brixton Concert Hall, now in course of construction, are the most recent specimens of this class of building in the locality in question. Loughborough Hall, situated at Loughborough Junction, [...] Loughborough Junction Station, and is, indeed, bounded on one side by the main line, and on the other side by the Crystal Palace branch of the London, Chatham, and Dover Railway. Side entrances are provided from the covered colonnades (leading to the booking-office) under the station platforms; and on the ground-floor, fronting on to the colonnade, provision is made for a series of four or five shops on each side. The remainder of the space on the ground-floor is proposed to utilise as a minor hall, suitable for use, when necessary, as a supper-room for ball-parties, &c. The principal hall, 64 ft. long, ..."

Frustratingly, this is one of the items that Google only shows part of, so no more than that is visible. Tell you what, I've been meaning to get a British Library reader's pass for a while, so I'll take this as an excuse to get on the case with that, as they have a searchable full-text body of The Builder.

Edit: typo

 

[toggle]

It appears that caution should be had; there was a Loughborough Hall extant as early as 1858 which I imagine to be an earlier building.

Aha! The Builder, April 17, 1880:

"The Loughborough Hall, recently opened, and the Brixton Concert Hall, now in course of construction, are the most recent specimens of this class of building in the locality in question. Loughborough Hall, situated at Loughborough Junction, [...] Loughborough Junction Station, and is, indeed, bounded on one side by the main line, and on the other side by the Crystal Palace branch of the London, Chatham, and Dover Railway. Side entrances are provided from the covered colonnades (leading to the booking-office) under the station platforms; and on the ground-floor, fronting on to the colonnade, provision is made for a series of four or five shops on each side. The remainder of the space on the ground-floor is proposed to utilise as a minor hall, suitable for use, when necessary, as a supper-room for ball-parties, &c. The principal hall, 64 ft. long, ..."

Frustratingly, this is one of the books that Google only shows part of, so no more than that is visible. Tell you what, I've been meaning to get a British Library reader's pass for a while, so I'll take this as an excuse to get on the case with that, as they have a searchable full-text body of The Builder.

so if there was a loughborough hall there before, if it was rebuilt at the time of the line coming through, then that could have been that the original was in the way.

and that isn't a book, it's a journal.

http://www.builderindex.org/?q=scope

 

[thatguyhex]

.

 

[toggle]

soz, should explain, it would almost certainly be archived with their newspapers. which would have been at collingdale. which is now closed while the collection is being moved to erm, somewhere a couple of hundred miles north

 

[thatguyhex]

so if there was a loughborough hall there before, if it was rebuilt at the time of the line coming through, then that could have been that the original was in the way.

Possibly... but I can't see the 1858-mentioned hall in 1864.

and that isn't a book, it's a journal.

Yes, it's a journal, that was a typo.

soz, should explain, it would almost certainly be archived with their newspapers. which would have been at collingdale. which is now closed while the collection is being moved to erm, somewhere a couple of hundred miles north

Soz here as well - edits crossing in the mail. Yeah - I'll see what the digital index has to offer though.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

It appears that caution should be had; there was a Loughborough Hall extant as early as 1858 which I imagine to be an earlier building.

I think the date of that book as 1858 is an error on someone's part - there is a reference on the line above to the 'Masonic Hall, built 1876' and another reference a few lines above to something else built in 1876.

A short bit of research suggests that the Bradshaw 'Shilling Handbook' was (like most travel guides) issued every few years. 1858 appears to have been the first issue, but pretty sure that the page referring to Loughborough Hall was from a later edition.

 

[thatguyhex]

I think the date of that book as 1858 is an error on someone's part - there is a reference on the line above to the 'Masonic Hall, built 1876' and another reference a few lines above to something else built in 1876.

A short bit of research suggests that the Bradshaw 'Shilling Handbook' was (like most travel guides) issued every few years. 1858 appears to have been the first issue, but pretty sure that the page referring to Loughborough Hall was from a later edition.

Hurr durr - you're right, Google Books has cocked up. I clearly need to put the coffee on if I'm not noticing stuff like that.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Hurr durr - you're right, Google Books has cocked up. I clearly need to put the coffee on if I'm not noticing stuff like that.

never trust sources...

i have encountered a few photographs in official collections (for example) where someone has not questioned a date that has been added, but it's provably wrong (e.g. dated after a particular building was demolished / before it was built or some such)

 

[MAD-T-REX]

Soz here as well - edits crossing in the mail. Yeah - I'll see what the digital index has to offer though.

The Guildhall Library should hold a copy - I've used it for looking up all sorts of, well, old shit on London's built environment.

 

[thatguyhex]

never trust sources...

i have encountered a few photographs in official collections (for example) where someone has not questioned a date that has been added, but it's provably wrong (e.g. dated after a particular building was demolished / before it was built or some such)

I'm loving the irony of my writing "caution should be had" and then immediately mentioning something based on an uncautious reading.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

I'm loving the irony of my writing "caution should be had" and then immediately mentioning something based on an uncautious reading.

 

[toggle]

oh, weren't the british library doing a digital project with loads of maps, erm, insurance maps? you might find something on their website

 

[thatguyhex]

oh, weren't the british library doing a digital project with loads of maps, erm, insurance maps? you might find something on their website

Good idea! I've just had a grub around on that basis, but unfortunately the insurance maps don't cover Brixton - here's the coverage for southwest London. There's also the Crace Collection of 1200 London maps but surprisingly the BL haven't provided a very easy way for searching through it.

The 1877 1:2,500 OS map (source: old-maps.co.uk) has a patch of empty land, so it seems like a new creation circa 1879 when we add that to the Builder quote.

Offtopic: also I notice that in 1877, Electric Lane was called The Mews and was the back lane of a row of large houses. The "Iceland Building" is the only other sign of their footprint.

 

[toggle]

Hurr durr - you're right, Google Books has cocked up. I clearly need to put the coffee on if I'm not noticing stuff like that.

oh yeah, i read something a few months back saying that something like 1/3 of the book metadata is incorrect.

 

[editor]

Here's some pics I took today:

 

[thatguyhex]

Make what you will of the conclusion of this piece in The Architect, Sept. 7 1872:

 

[thatguyhex]

Bonus: "The Lambeth portions of these lines... were opened by 1867, although not without mishap, for in 1864 nineteen newly-completed arches at Brixton collapsed when the centering was removed." (The Builder, 1864, p. 141, cited in the Survey of London Vol. XXVI, 1956.) Just picture what that must have looked like.

 

[TodayIsCaturday]

Here is the Land Registry title information

It contains information on current ownership and info from 1960 but disappointingly nothing earlier than that.

A: Property Register

This register describes the land and estate comprised in
the title.
LAMBETH
1 (12.09.1918) The Freehold land shown edged with red on the plan of the
above Title filed at the Registry and being 204a Coldharbour Lane,
London (SW9 8SA).
2 The land has the benefit of a right of way over the land tinted brown
on the filed plan.

B: Proprietorship Register
This register specifies the class of title and
identifies the owner. It contains any entries that
affect the right of disposal.

Title absolute
1 (02.02.1996) PROPRIETOR: JOSEPH OLUROTIMI ADEGBENRO OGUNBAYO of 38
Renton Close. Brixton Hill, London SW2, and OLANREWAJU SANNI of 24
Wargrave Avenue, Stamford Hill, London N15 and BABATUNDE OGUNRO of 8B
Rymer Street, London SE24 and ILESANMI ADIGUN of 98 Levita House,
Chalton Street, London NW1 and THOMAS OLUBODE OKE of 32 Kellett Road,
London SW2 the trustees of the Charity known as The Clapham Parish of
the Celestial Church of Christ.
2 (02.02.1996) RESTRICTION: Except under an order of the registrar no
disposition or dealing by the proprietor of the land is to be
registered unless the instrument giving effect to it contains a
certificate complying with section 37(2) or, in the case of a charge,
with section 39(2) of the Charities Act 1993.
3 (02.02.1996) RESTRICTION: No disposition by a sole proprietor of the
land (not being a trust corporation) under which capital money arises
is to be registered except under an order of the registrar or of the
Court.


C: Charges Register
This register contains any charges and other matters
that affect the land.

1 A Transfer dated 29 January 1960 made between (1) Watney Mann Limited
(Vendor) and (2) Watney Mann Property Company Limited (Purchaser)
contains the following covenants:-
"THE Purchaser for itself and its successors in title and assigns
hereby covenants with the Vendor its successors in title and assigns
and so as to bind all the properties hereby transferred and each and
every part thereof into whosesoever hands the same may come and so that
this covenant shall enure for the benefit of all and each of the
properties whereof immediately after the date hereof the Vendor is the
freeholder lessee or tenant that the Purchaser shall not nor shall any
successor in title of the Purchaser use or permit to be used the
properties hereby transferred or any part thereof or any buildings
erected or to be erected thereon for the trade or business of a
wholesale and/or retail seller of beer wines spirits or other
intoxicating liquors or permit the said properties or any part thereof
or any buildings erected or to be erected thereon to be used as a club
where intoxicating liquors shall be sold supplied or consumed or for
the display of advertisements of beers wines spirits or other
intoxicating liquors except those beers brewed by the vendor or its
associated companies and that during the period commencing on the date
hereof and expiring Twenty one years after the death of the last to die
of the descendants now living of His Late Majesty King Goerge V the
Purchaser will in any sale or lease of the said properties or any of
them or any part thereof otherwise than to the vendor procure that the
purchaser or lessee in its conveyance or lease enters into a
restrictive covenant with the vendor to the foregoing effect but so
that such last mentioned covenant shall be expressed to enure for the
benefit of such properties as the Vendor may specify."

Watney Mann was a brewery company - "Watney Mann was formed in 1958 with the merger of Watney, Combe, Reid & Co. Ltd with Mann, Crossman & Paulin Ltd"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watney_Combe_&_Reid

 

[thatguyhex]

I happened across mention of a "Loughborough Assembly Halls" while searching and found this charming news article from 1906 in which Brixton residents are divided on the topic of whether music halls are a good thing for the area. The more things change, the more they stay the same!

 

[Pickman's model]

Good idea! I've just had a grub around on that basis, but unfortunately the insurance maps don't cover Brixton - here's the coverage for southwest London. There's also the Crace Collection of 1200 London maps but surprisingly the BL haven't provided a very easy way for searching through it.

The 1877 1:2,500 OS map (source: old-maps.co.uk) has a patch of empty land, so it seems like a new creation circa 1879 when we add that to the Builder quote.

Offtopic: also I notice that in 1877, Electric Lane was called The Mews and was the back lane of a row of large houses. The "Iceland Building" is the only other sign of their footprint.

it's not an 1877 map. it's an 1870/71 ordnance survey map as can be easily seen from the garden layouts and the fact that someone else posted another copy of it near the start of the thread.

e2a: although your mention of maps at the bl's a bloody good one, you've just been looking at the wrong ones. i'll be back in a minute with more information.

 

[thatguyhex]

it's not an 1877 map. it's an 1870/71 ordnance survey map as can be easily seen from the garden layouts and the fact that someone else posted another copy of it near the start of the thread.

Okay. The navigation at old-maps.co.uk has it as "1875-1877".

 

[Pickman's model]

Okay. The navigation at old-maps.co.uk has it as "1875-1877".

i don't recall seeing a map from the first os survey dated after 1873; the incomplete list of facsimile maps at http://www.alangodfreymaps.com/londonmiddx.htm doesn't seem to list any 1877 maps. none the less, your bracketing's good and could be supplemented by a glance at a drainage plan to arrive at a more precise date of construction.

 

[Pickman's model]

someone with more patience than me might be able to find one of the goad fire insurance plans at http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/onlineex/firemaps/fireinsurancemaps.html to cover loughborough junction; it doesn't appear to be in volume k, my best bet is you'd find one - if it existed - in volume j.

 

[thatguyhex]

someone with more patience than me might be able to find one of the goad fire insurance plans at http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/onlineex/firemaps/fireinsurancemaps.html to cover loughborough junction; it doesn't appear to be in volume k, my best bet is you'd find one - if it existed - in volume j.

The Volume K key plan that I linked to earlier has a shred of Volume J on its eastern boundary that covers Loughborough Junction and no coverage is indicated. Unfortunately the key plan online for Volume J is only partial and doesn't cover the western edge. I'll scrape through the maps some more.

 

[Pickman's model]

The Volume K key plan that I linked to earlier has a shred of Volume J on its eastern boundary that covers Loughborough Junction and no coverage is indicated. Unfortunately there's no key plan online for Volume J (I looked).

there is: http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/onlineex/firemaps/england/london/htok/mapsu145ubu24ujuf003r.html but it doesn't seem to show l.j. nonetheless, there are within that volume plans which go down to camberwell green which is when i gave up and i think it likely there's one.

e2a: it doesn't seem to show j1 to 30 tho

 

[thatguyhex]

Sorry, I noticed that myself and corrected my post, but you were faster in replying

 

[thatguyhex]

Incidentally, to complement TodayIsCaturday's post of the title register, here's the title plan.

 

[Pickman's model]

anyway dinner and football time