5 Cyclists dead in 1 week in London

[stuff_it]

Someone I know saw a cyclist get fully mashed up by a delivery truck a few weeks ago as well in East London.

I think it was probably this one, and from what I hear a helmet would have been little use...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-24823771

 

[andysays]

The distinction comes because buses will usually be driven by someone who is familiar with London traffic, and more importantly because they are going to be using a set route that the cyclist is much more likely to be aware of. That doesnt remove risk, but it does reduce it. Also the story in the OP does mention that one of the deaths - Francis Golding's - was cyclist vs coach.

OK, I understand the distinction that you're making, and I agree that it makes some sense.

And you're right, it does mention one "cyclist vs coach" death - I obviously didn't read to the very end.

My preferred method of reducing accidents, both as an individual cyclist and as a suggested policy for planners, would be to keep cyclists off the busiest roads, by abandoning the ridiculous super highway bollocks, by encouraging cycling on smaller roads from which anything larger than a car is banned, and, in the longer term, by identifying existing bottle necks like Crispy's crossing the River Lea and building additional dedicated cycle lanes including bridges over rivers, railways if necessary. After this has been done, I'd also consider banning cycling on particularly busy roads where it's not possible to seperate cycles from buses, lorries, etc.

 

[fredfelt]

It is often the most skillful and experienced cyclists who break the rules most often. I know a few couriers. They will all do a variety of the things Pickman's has highlighted where they think they can. And they are the most skillful cyclists on the roads.

Reminds me of a question that was in QI. The answer was 'desire line'. This is where people take the most appropriate route, despite a pavement showing them where they should go.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desire_line

From the Wiki page it seems that in Finland they visit paths after snowfall to help plan routing in new parks.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

OK, I understand the distinction that you're making, and I agree that it makes some sense.

And you're right, it does mention one "cyclist vs coach" death - I obviously didn't read to the very end.

My preferred method of reducing accidents, both as an individual cyclist and as a suggested policy for planners, would be to keep cyclists off the busiest roads, by abandoning the ridiculous super highway bollocks, by encouraging cycling on smaller roads from which anything larger than a car is banned, and, in the longer term, by identifying existing bottle necks like Crispy's crossing the River Lea and building additional dedicated cycle lanes including bridges over rivers, railways if necessary. After this has been done, I'd also consider banning cycling on particularly busy roads where it's not possible to seperate cycles from buses, lorries, etc.

Ultimately, separate cycle roads are the only safe solution. It's what they do in Holland. I would be interested to know the cycle safety record in Holland. I would guess it is very good.

 

[8ball]

From the Wiki page it seems that in Finland they visit paths after snowfall to help plan routing in new parks.

That's some proper thinking there.

 

[andysays]

Ultimately, separate cycle roads are the only safe solution. It's what they do in Holland. I would be interested to know the cycle safety record in Holland. I would guess it is very good.

Yeah, except you'd always get the old 5% of cyclists who thought they were better and more entitled than anyone else, who kept on the roads (except when they're on the pavement, of course), kept breaking the law, kept causing accidents and kept blaming everyone but themselves.

Ride carefully...

 

[Pickman's model]

Do you think that training would solve this problem?

as i have said on another thread, it can't hurt to try. if cycling was taught at schools from, say, the age of 12 with refresher courses available then i would expect it to have some effect.

 

[TotallyGreatGuy]

There's definitely a cultural difference of attitudes towards cyclists in The Netherlands. In Britain cyclists are seen as somewhat of a nuisance, whereas in The Netherlands cycling is a way of life and is much more accepted.

 

[TotallyGreatGuy]

as i have said on another thread, it can't hurt to try. if cycling was taught at schools from, say, the age of 12 with refresher courses available then i would expect it to have some effect.

Cycling proficiency courses are run by many schools. I took mine at the age of 11 (11 years ago) and passed with flying colours. You'd be surprised as to the rules that are advised, cycling 60cms from the pavement for example. Many drivers get hella angry at cyclists for being so far from the curb.

 

[fredfelt]

as i have said on another thread, it can't hurt to try. if cycling was taught at schools from, say, the age of 12 with refresher courses available then i would expect it to have some effect.

I totally agree. Cycling should, and I think, generally is, taught in schools.

At least in Oxford, cycle courses are offered through the universities and also some employers. There are also guided rides, and specific rides for women who may be less willing to be assertive on the roads and feel intimated by club rides.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

There's definitely a cultural difference of attitudes towards cyclists in The Netherlands. In Britain cyclists are seen as somewhat of a nuisance, whereas in The Netherlands cycling is a way of life and is much more accepted.

Absolutely. Cyclists come first. Drivers second. Pedestrians a fairly distant last. Thing is that most drivers in Holland are also cyclists.

 

[fredfelt]

That's some proper thinking there.

Yup. The point is that you have to take into account human nature. It shouldn't be of any surprise that poor infrastructure causes the irritations that Pickman's model highlights.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yeah, except you'd always get the old 5% of cyclists who thought they were better and more entitled than anyone else, who kept on the roads (except when they're on the pavement, of course), kept breaking the law, kept causing accidents and kept blaming everyone but themselves.

Ride carefully...

Cyclists stick to the cycle paths in Holland. Why wouldn't they? It would be like a pedestrian walking down the middle of the road when there's a pavement there for them.

 

[8ball]

Cycling proficiency courses are run by many schools. I took mine at the age of 11 (11 years ago) and passed with flying colours. You'd be surprised as to the rules that are advised, cycling 60cms from the pavement for example. Many drivers get hella angry at cyclists for being so far from the curb.

Where I live they do these 'cycling proficiency' things for adults who haven't rode a bike in ages. Less 'testing' and more of a gently ride in a group on some fairly quiet roads at first.

60cm from the pavement seems like a minimum to be clear of the drains - that would be a bare minimum, surely!

 

[Pickman's model]

Cyclists stick to the cycle paths in Holland. Why wouldn't they? It would be like a pedestrian walking down the middle of the road when there's a pavement there for them.

there is a little pavement along the middle of much of oxford street: very handy

 

[fredfelt]

Absolutely. Cyclists come first. Drivers second. Pedestrians a fairly distant last. Thing is that most drivers in Holland are also cyclists.

In law they have something known as 'strict liability' which puts pedestrians first.

 

[gentlegreen]

60cm from the pavement seems like a minimum to be clear of the drains - that would be a bare minimum, surely!

Current teaching is 1 metre minimum.
IE ride in primary unless you can't keep up with the traffic flow, then drop to 1 metre from the kerb if it is reasonable to do so - e.g you won't need to move out again very shortly because of an obstacle.

 

[andysays]

Cyclists stick to the cycle paths in Holland. Why wouldn't they? It would be like a pedestrian walking down the middle of the road when there's a pavement there for them.

Don't ask me, ask your red-light-jumping, pavement-riding, pedestrian-endangering, rule-breaking, everyone-else-blaming, can-do-no-wrong, cycling courier, ubermensch mates

 

[TotallyGreatGuy]

Pedestrians should always come first. Oldest form of transport!

 

[littlebabyjesus]

In law they have something known as 'strict liability' which puts pedestrians first.

Sounds sensible. Culturally, however, ime the pedestrian in a Dutch city feels that they are not the priority.

 

[agricola]

Pedestrians should always come first. Oldest form of transport!

Surely that was swimming?

 

[stuff_it]

If we kept the HGVs and got rid of the cyclists that would also work.

You could ban HGVs except in certain hours. It would make more sense for them to travel outside rush hour anyway.

 

[agricola]

You could ban HGVs except in certain hours. It would make more sense for them to travel outside rush hour anyway.

Indeed - in fact it might actually end up generating a few extra jobs as well.

 

[Pickman's model]

Indeed - in fact it might actually end up generating a few extra jobs as well.

bearers

 

[agricola]

bearers

 

[Miss-Shelf]

cycling is good for individuals and good for the transport of the population
we should be doing everything we can do to support it and not vilifying individual cyclists
some cyclists don't cycle well
some cyclists break road rules wilfully for the sake of it - yes, and?
some cyclists follow all the rules and end up in collisions
most cyclists learn to cycle well and follow most rules but break a few when it makes most sense for them and other road users (IME of cycling in London)

 

[Pickman's model]

going down the lea

 

[Boycey]

The point of this is not to prove that all cyclists are arseholes, but to suggest that the behaviour of this irresponsible few is of some significance to the problem of cycle accidents leading to injury and death.

is there any suggestion how many of the 5 deaths were caused by reckless or dangerous cycling?

 

[Lo Siento.]

you're highlighting cycling on pavements. i was thinking of cyclists going the wrong way down one-way streets, cycling down roads where they're prohibited, or going through red lights. these sorts of risk-taking behaviours are unlikely to be found in careful cyclists as they expose the cyclist to additional risk.

Whilst irritating, all those "risk-taking behaviours" are almost a total non-entity as a factor in cycling fatalities. So even if you could persuade the minority of cyclists who do them regularly it would have virtually no impact whatsoever on the number of deaths.

 

[andysays]

is there any suggestion how many of the 5 deaths were caused by reckless or dangerous cycling?

Not as far as I can see, and I'm not trying to suggest that any of those individuals were reckless, necessarily, but I think it's impossible to argue that the fact that a small proportion of cyclists ride recklessly (as do a small proportion of car drivers, bus drivers, lorry drivers, etc) contributes to the level of accidents.

The thing that jumps out at me from that article, which I've mentioned already, is that so many of them happened on a Cycle Super Highway on the A11, where cyclists are positively encouraged to ride alongside cars, buses, lorries etc on a hugely busy road.